Thread: Heroes For Gods?

Originally Posted by Fido

As a newcomer to the forum I'm surprised to see this discussion.

I have no wish to attack anyone's deeply held beliefs. They have the same freedom as I do to think and decide for themselves what they believe to be true.

I asked myself this question: Was the universe created by a being conscious of what it was doing and able to control all that followed and is?

I find it impossible to answer yes. So I live a happy and peaceful life. And know I am very lucky.

Welcome to the land of surprises.

I am glad you have no wish to "attack anyone's deeply held beliefs". I don't have the same wish. But after that you lost me.

Originally Posted by JimR

An Atheist is NOT a nihilist. Athiests believe there is no God. Nihilists? Zey belief in nussink, Lebovski!

Right you are Jim, I meant the "or" inclusively as in atheists or nihilists for that matter, not as the two being synonyms.

Also, I am not arguing that atheists can't act "morally," only that their morality comes from a different place and fundamental structure from religious morality. An atheist could either follow a socially constructed morality or an inner morality (which would also be largely influenced by social factors). In this way the atheistic morality shifts depending on society. Wherever society goes (judeo christian principles, progressive liberties, eugenics etc.) morality follows.

Religious morality hinges on the deity of choice, and his/her commandments, rites, and ordinances.

At the end of the day any individual can act "morally" regardless of beliefs, but that morality hinges on their beliefs. It can't be proven one way or another (or another or another) which brand of morality is correct. The only difference is that for the atheist, morality is a fleeting concern that only relates to life. Once life is gone, it ceases to matter. For the religious, this is a different ball-game.

Again, this says nothing about how individuals will act depending upon their beliefs.

Well, the fact is some people's God's are just bigger and tougher than others. So if you are convinced that your God can beat the you know what out of someone else's then your going to have the might is right attitude.

Don't make no fun of people with snakes. Uncle jethro says if you are truly righteous you have nothing to fear and those snakes will prove it. he invites you all to come down for services on Sunday to handle a few Copperheads.

I do think it deserves mentioning that I also believe Atheists who have never given religion a fair chance as just as much in the wrong in my mind. I feel as if I have given both sides a fair chance (went to a religious camp, attended voluntarily with friends, went to a boarding school where we had to attend a religious service, dated a catholic girl for about 2 years, etc...) but in my mind, it just doesn't hold up.

Everyone is entitled to their views though. I just think it is a decision each person needs to come to on his or her own.

Originally Posted by DPflaumer

Telling an Atheist he is going to Hell is like telling a Diabetic he is going to Candyland. Scary, if they believed in it.

Depends on how much insulin you have on board

Originally Posted by icedog

Are you looking for some sort of judgement?

Do you feel that you are right and everyone who believes differently is wrong?

My answer to both questions is no.
There's too much judgment going on already.
I think we are all children and have much to learn.
If we can retain some humility, we may learn from each other.
Now, I'm going off to strop a bit.

Originally Posted by JimR

If you think you need God to make you moral, you aren't a very moral person.

And without God, then people are free to make up their own minds about what is moral or not.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

And without God, then people are free to make up their own minds about what is moral or not.

I once heard a noted Presbyterian minister, the late Donald Gray Barnhouse say," If you want to know what a born again Christian is capable of doing read the epistles and see what he is told not to do. It says let him who stole steal no more. Lie not to one another seeing that you have put off the old man." I don't remember the rest of the sermon but it is an example to think about when discussing morals in the context of religion. Believers don't necessarily have the market cornered on morals and integrity.

Originally Posted by norman931

My answer to both questions is no.
There's too much judgment going on already.
I think we are all children and have much to learn.
If we can retain some humility, we may learn from each other.
Now, I'm going off to strop a bit.

You better watch that or you'll go blind.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I once heard a noted Presbyterian minister, the late Donald Gray Barnhouse say," If you want to know what a born again Christian is capable of doing read the epistles and see what he is told not to do. It says let him who stole steal no more. Lie not to one another seeing that you have put off the old man." I don't remember the rest of the sermon but it is an example to think about when discussing morals in the context of religion. Believers don't necessarily have the market cornered on morals and integrity.

If you actually read the Bible, it is filled with stories of people who are not morally upstanding, but are rather all quite flawed and immoral.

King David? Had his neighbor killed so that he could have his wife.
(it should be noted that he did repent of commiting this act)

Peter, the apostle? He was a close friend of Jesus, yet denied even knowing him when push came to shove.
(again, he also repented of his actions as well)

Paul the Apostle was an outright persecutor of the early Christian Church.


And who was it that had Jesus put to death? The religious leaders of the time!

Over and over again there are stories, not of pillars of morality, but rather of people who are as weak and flawed as you or me.


The key thing about Christianity is not necessarily about having "attained" a certain state (if you have, you would be refered to as a saint), but rather that you are at least trying to wrestle with your shortcomings. To at least acknowledge that you are not perfect.

Christianity is not about Christians (and their failings), it is about Christ.