Thread: Christmas poll

I read an inspiring post yesterday on Mennodiscuss, a Mennonite run anabaptist based discussion forum.

They were having a debate as to whether the Bible was literal or not, whether it all could be verified by history or was speaking in metaphors.

One gentleman stated that he would rather spend his time simply following and trying to live the teachings of Jesus rather than study so deeply to seek wisdom as to prove whether every statement in the Bible were true.

I rather liked his simple, childlike approach. Whether you believe or not isn't the message given a pretty good instruction book?

Tony

Tony,

My father, a religious and prety oobservant Jew, feels the same way. He lies to say that given any version of the Torah or Bible, read "as a child would" would bring a man to live a good life. Taken as an instruction manual, who could really argue? (aside, I'd have to say from the often quoted "stone the ones who mix their threads" type arguments).

Also, I'd like to state that he (and I) believe in the occurance roughly 2,000 years ago of the birth of a man we know as Jesus. Again, whether or not he did what some think, or he meant what some think...is not within the scope of this dicussion.



As for the Dar Williams song The Christians and the Pagans...it was just recently quoted at a wedding I had the pleasure of participating in (two of my dearest friends). Their lives incorporate religious metaphor from a truly global perspective. They jumped a broom, borke a glass, had their hands bound, and knelt to a cross. One of the officiants was a good good friend, whio is an episcopal priest. He quotes the song, and asked if anyone could guess which "side" he was on (the collar made it pretty easy.) Then we all drank mead, broke bread together, and danced until the middle fo the night.

Originally Posted by livingontheedge

When I was in high school a girl got pregnant while her hymen was still intact, it seems that she would allow her boyfriend to "play around the edges" but not fully penetrate her leaving her a "virgin" and yet still with child. It seems to me, that given the same set of circumstances, in a more naieve age it could have been credited to a miracle, and if it were, you could have the whole community believing that a miracle had in fact taken place. Now if the people responsible for the reering of the child told them their whole life that they were "the son of God" they would believe it themself, much as the peoples of various religions believe that they are right because everyone they know has told them their whole life that they are right. The bible reinforces that belief in me by the quote of Jesus on the cross "father why have thou forsaken me" to me it is the point at which Jesus realizes that what he has believed his whole life is wrong. Why make a statement like that if you know God and can communicate directly with him? I feel that it is because he realized that he is not "The Son of God" and he knows he is going to die. Some give the reason that man is as we are because we were created perfect but with free will, however if a perfect being created us than we would be perfect as he intended, not flawed as we are, so if we are not exactly as was intended, than that to me would demonstrate an imperfect God created us. The only sin that can not be forgiven is using the lords name in vain, to me suggests that God is quite vain and would not easily accept failure if this were the case who is to say some of his later attempts, possibly on other planets, did succeed. Now would a vain spiteful God want to be reminded of "his only failure" in all of eternity or would he just leave us to destroy ourselves? If God did not make us perfect than he can not be perfect himself, not the kind of being I would choose to align myself with. If the bible fortells future events than it stand to reason that God Knows all, so even as he was creating us he would know the outcome, so why continue, why create something that you know will fail? Now we a talking about a "perfect being" so failure seems impossible to me whatever the claimed circumstances may have been. In heaven the lamb will lay down with he lion? so these amimals will go to heaven? If they do then are we not murderers every time we eat? Could not an all powerful being have created us without the need to kill? Is there no demonstrated way for a life form to get energy from any other means besides killing? Plant do it all the time. It seems to me God could easily have provided us with the same ability, after all he is "all powerfull" Sorry if I have offended anyone this is just the way I see things. I wish God were real and welcome anyone to prove it to be true. I do not even require absolute proof just logical proof.

Since we're still in the 12 days of Christmas....

That quote from Jesus is not a result of doubt on his part, but rather he is speaking the opening stanza from Psalm 22 which is prophetic in regards to His death on the cross.

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

... isn't the message given a pretty good instruction book?

It certainly isn't. Even in the New Testament there is approval for slavery, stoning and homophobia. Certainly if you are willing to cherry pick you'll find some things there which work, bet even then there's not enough to meet our needs in this modern world. I suspect that the only reason people like your friend do well with their morality is that they are attentive, as we all should be, to modern mores.

A Happy New Year to you, Tony.

Xman, happy new year to you as well.

While we disagree here I do respect your opinion. I cannot say for sure whether I am right, you are right or in fact any of us are right in our beliefs. I only know what I feel called to believe. It is not my place to tell anyone else what they should believe, only to act as a witness to what I feel.

As for good instructions, well, if one is a believer or not, if we all followed the Sermon on the Mount the world could be a happier place and people could get along much better. Of course there are many Christians today who say that discourse no longer applies either............it clashes with modern desires and wants. For anabaptists like myself, the Mennonites, Brethren and Amish, and even the conservative Quakers (Friends), it is our daily creed. Acting on it is easier said than done but it is a goal none the less.

Nice to see this thread has remained fairly calm !

Tony

Originally Posted by xman

It certainly isn't. Even in the New Testament there is approval for slavery, stoning and homophobia.

Slavery in New Testament times more closely relates to a "bond servant" Than to what we understand about slavery.The word most commonly used word is doulos which is translated "slave" In the Holman Christian Standard and in the Goodspeed translation. A good example would be Romans 1:1 Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle and singled out for God's good news.

Stoning though barbaric was a form of Capitol punishment but again Jesus said: When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. John 8:7&9

Homophobia is another one of those words I have not been able to find in my studies(Not the action either). God's word calls Homosexuality an abomination but Believers are commanded to love the sinner but hate the sin. Never are we told to "fear" anything outside God Himself and that fear is a reverence not a terrified action.

Justifying immorality for 2,000 years.

Another seriously good video for all to consider:

YouTube - UC Berkeley Event (1/6) - Richard Dawkins