Thread: Christmas poll

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

Philosophy and religion are two wholly different topics. Socrates, Plato or Aristotle never claimed to be immortal/divine/superhuman. Philosophy is open to interpretation and argument, and does not require that people dedicate their time, money, and effort to understanding / believing it. Whether or not Socrates existed is neither here nor there. He never really contributed much in terms of science -- just philosophy. I don't think you can make the same argument regarding any historical scientific contributor.

Science is "above" humanity while religion "requires" humanity. Without humanity, there would be no religion because religion requires humans to sustain it through preaching / oral tradition. Its tenets are not observable (feelings, suspicions, hairs on the neck, are neither measurable nor constant).

Aristotle had a number of ideas about scientific method and physics (i.e. "the elements") that were advanced for his time but have been disproved over time, experimentation and observation. So, you can call him a liar because he was "wrong", but in reality he got the ball rolling so his successors could figure out what was "right".

Take Archimedes as a simple example of how science is above humanity. He figured out how to measure volume using water displacement. Now, if he hadn't have written down what he found, the same thing would have been found by somebody else because the test is repeatable and observable.

Religion has the luxury of being "right" from the start, and unchallengeable throughout its existence.

It's for these reasons that I don't think the "Socrates argument" holds much water and that the "Aristotle argument" is ineffective.

I posted this thread to find out if people believed that Jesus was a person who actually existed (i.e.- was actually born, seeing as we are celebrating Christmas, I thought it appropo), not as to whether or not He was the Christ, religious beliefs, etc.

For many pages the historical validity of his existance was debated, prior to taking a turn into discussions about faith vs. reason or what not.

In my previous witty, and cunningly crafted () post in regards to Socrates I am not so much calling into question the merits, or not of philosophy, science, et al, but rather the fact that I think most folks believe that Socrates actually existed, even though all we have to go on is the same "facts" as we have in regards to Jesus, that being, accounts written about him by the people who were close to him.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

I posted this thread to find out if people believed that Jesus was a person who actually existed (i.e.- was actually born, seeing as we are celebrating Christmas, I thought it appropo), not as to whether or not He was the Christ, religious beliefs, etc.

For many pages the historical validity of his existance was debated, prior to taking a turn into discussions about faith vs. reason or what not.

In my previous witty, and cunningly crafted () post in regards to Socrates I am not so much calling into question the merits, or not of philosophy, science, et al, but rather the fact that I think most folks believe that Socrates actually existed, even though all we have to go on is the same "facts" as we have in regards to Jesus, that being, accounts written about him by the people who were close to him.

Right you are. My apologies for being off-topic. I'll say "Yes", Jesus the person existed. My only concession on the topic!

Originally Posted by Seraphim

I posted this thread to find out if people believed that Jesus was a person who actually existed (i.e.- was actually born, seeing as we are celebrating Christmas, I thought it appropo), not as to whether or not He was the Christ, religious beliefs, etc.

Seraphim,

Sorry for being one of those who took it offtopic.
I believe there was a man named Jesus.

My intention in any of my posts, was not to question your, or anyone elses faith or right to believe the things he/she might have chosen.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Seraphim,

Sorry for being one of those who took it offtopic.
I believe there was a man named Jesus.

My intention in any of my posts, was not to question your, or anyone elses faith or right to believe the things he/she might have chosen.

Question away! It was inevitable that the topic would go astray.

I appreciate your input in this thread. Your posts were always clearly expressed and well thought out, even after spending time at the pub!