Thread: Dark Matter

Originally Posted by Seraphim

So, scientifically speaking, dark matter is about as observable as the presence of God?

Theoretical
Undetectable
Presence can be inferred from...
"could account for..."



OK, let's go!

Don't dismiss that "inferred from" too lightly. How do we know of or become aware of *anything* other than inferring it through our senses' interpretations of whatever it is they are sensitive to? If we look at a tree, is there really a tree there? We can infer its existence from our sensitivities to a variety of electro-magnetic effects (e.g. light waves, touch). Most would accept that evidence for the existence of a tree. If dark matter's existence can be inferred from gravitational effects why is that less substantial?

I guess it matters what is meant by "dark matter". There are a variety of gravitational observations etc. that indicate *something* heretofore unnoticed is "there". If "dark matter" simply is a short-hand name for referring to "whatever it is that is causing those effects" it pretty much indisputably exists. If we insist on knowing more about it (as we do insist) then perhaps we don't want to give it the respect of acknowledging its existence without a deeper understanding of *what* it is.

Of course if you got in an epistemological knot over the existence of a tree a Zen master would knock you over the head with a branch cut from the tree and ask if you now believe in it. I guess we are not there yet with dark matter.

Originally Posted by JeffE

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but the presence of dark matter in the universe IS observable. In fact, it's the observations that led scientists to conclude that there is such a thing as dark matter. To put it simply, we can calculate how much matter there is in a given galaxy by adding up the amount of observable matter (basically, stars), and we can calculate the rate of rotation of each galaxy. The problem is that the rate of rotation and the amount of matter are related to each other by some very basic laws of physics, but the observations of matter and rotation do not add up, no matter where you look. Which is why people suspect that there is some other large quantity of matter in each galaxy that is affecting the rate of rotation but otherwise is not part of the galaxy's stars, hence dark matter.

In other words, the mystery is really limited what dark matter actually is. And there wouldn't be much of a mystery there either if we had practical ways to travel interstellar distances, but right now, basically the only way that we know what something outside our solar system is composed of is by observing its radiation, and there is apparently no radiation from dark matter (that's the dark part) so we just don't know what it is.

Now, if you want to talk about a physical phenomenon that is analogous to God, maybe you should stick to dark energy, but I digress . . . !

And this is part of my argument. It doesn't add up.

So, with some hand waving, scientists say "let there be dark matter", and behold it was good, because it filled in the missing blanks on their calculations.....

So, there could possibly be such a thing as dark matter, or perhaps the original calculations are in error in some regard when dealing with things on that scale?

Originally Posted by gugi

You glossed over the most important part - 'effects on visible matter'
Now you can argue whether God has any such effect or it is a wishful thinking, make believe and just human psychology.
But yes, dark matter is probably just another way of saying that there are things that are not completely explained by the current science. Same argument, actually, used to explain any 'odd' things about God (humans just can't comprehend it).

But I do have a couple of pitchers full of water in the kitchen, so feel free to convert them into Montrachet any time. As far as I remember that's the very first thing a man called Jesus allegedly did as evidence of being God. I'm pretty sure if God is on the same level as dark matter repeatability is not going to be an issue.

You're asking the wrong guy. But I can give you the name of Someone to contact if you're truly interested!

Everyone chooses their God. Just some are more overt about it than others. And some are more optimistic than others (I think I prefer the mindset of people who choose the "great unknown" to be immeasurable love over those who choose it to be the remainder of an equation that did not quite give the expected results in a computer simulation).

James.

Now I see.......

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Now I see.......

At least it's an improvement over replacing the whole thing with "miracle"!

Originally Posted by Seraphim

And this is part of my argument. It doesn't add up.

So, with some hand waving, scientists say "let there be dark matter", and behold it was good, because it filled in the missing blanks on their calculations.....

So, there could possibly be such a thing as dark matter, or perhaps the original calculations are in error in some regard when dealing with things on that scale?

If you are trying to explain the existence of God(s) with dark matter, you are doing yourself a bad favor.
There are surely blanks, and even errors in scientific calculators, but as the time goes by they will get explanation.
That is not the same with religion. People in faith do not have blanks or errors.

I never repeat myself and now i do it again Faith doesn't need scientific proof. All you need to do is believe and that's it.
That is not the same with sciences. All the blanks and errors need reassessment and more calculations. Not closing eyes.
Those who in faith believe there was a dude who could wake up people from the death. Those who rely on science know he had a defibrillator.

From the NASA website:

Remarkably, it turns out there is five times more material in clusters of galaxies than we would expect from the galaxies and hot gas we can see. Most of the stuff in clusters of galaxies is invisible and, since these are the largest structures in the Universe held together by gravity, scientists then conclude that most of the matter in the entire Universe is invisible.

There you have it folks, from top-notch scientists themselves. The invisible pink unicorn is therefore a scientifically defendable possibility.


From Wiki:

Only about 4.6% of the mass of Universe is ordinary matter. About 23% is thought to be composed of dark matter. The remaining 72% is thought to consist of dark energy, an even stranger component, distributed diffusely in spac

Only 4.6% of the universe is possibly directly observable, yet rational thinking and the scientific method thereby preclude the existance of God?

Who's the one with the imaginary friend in the sky now?

Are you sure you were not a bullfighter in another life Seraphim?

James.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

From the NASA website:



There you have it folks, from top-notch scientists themselves. The invisible pink unicorn is therefore a scientifically defendable possibility.


From Wiki:


Only 4.6% of the universe is possibly directly observable, yet rational thinking and the scientific method thereby preclude the existance of God?

Who's the one with the imaginary friend in the sky now?

How does something that haven't explained yet be anything to do with God?
Or is God doing only 95,4% now, watching as his/her percentages go low?
He surely misses those days when the earth was flat