Thread: Equality In Competiton Too?

I wonder how many of those who support "equality for all", as in equal outcomes in life, are also fans of athletics? Many here advocate a society where everyone is brought up (or some brought down?) to an equal level; given the same advantages as everyone else regardless of work ethic, ability, or merit. In fact, life itself, just being here, is all the merit that is required for some.

Athletic competition, where there is always a winner, and always a loser, is the absolute antithesis of that view point. It's survival of the fittest, literally. The "Darwinian Society" glorified. I mean, if you are one of those who want everyone to have just as much as everyone else, how can you even stand to watch, let alone financially support through buying tickets, sporting events which epitomize inequality? Wouldn't it be hypocritical to cheer on the winners at the expense of the losers? Especially when the losers may experience real life disadvantage as a consequence of losing?

Consider the real advantages gained by the winners. Especially Olympic athletes and professional sports figures. What with the big endorsement deals, etc. that make them incredibly wealthy and famous, and allows them to buy big houses, fancy cars, luxury vacations. What about all those other athletes who train just as hard, but just don't quite cut it? No money, no fame. Totally unfair isn't it? Do you find it offensive?

Can you stand it? Are your convictions that strong? And do you boycott sporting events?

I'm pretty sure you'll have hard time finding the "equality for all" hypocrites you're looking for. But good luck on your quest and keep the holly hand grenade handy.

Originally Posted by gugi

I'm pretty sure you'll have hard time finding the "equality for all" hypocrites you're looking for. But good luck on your quest and keep the holly hand grenade handy.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And thanks for your good wishes.

Holly hand grenade - is that a Christmas time party favor or something? It does sound like something Santa's elves might keep on hand.

Well I guess I'm in for a hand grenade.
'cause I believe in equality, I believe in giving everyone the same advantages in life. I pay my taxes(all 45% of them) happily, knowing that others are benefitting from that money more than I myself do (at least for the time being).
If for some reason people are left behind in this rat race called life, I'm delighted to help out the best way I can.
Even, as you mention in your post, the lazy ones.( but most people falling off of the rat race are not lazy, it's a plethora of reasons for that. Sickness, abuse, unfortunate events beyond their own control. etc.)
Do I want to help get them a Mercedes, a big house, two boats and a 60" flat-screen? No, but a decent, worthy life, yessir.

And yet I love sports. I even do sports myself. participating at a national level even. (well, before this thing called age got to me)
I go watch it all the time.
But I don't see what you are getting at? Are you equalling life to a game of football?
Can one not love sports, and appreciate and admire the achievements by others even if you want whats best for all mankind?

Originally Posted by honedright

IMany here advocate a society where everyone is brought up (or some brought down?) to an equal level; given the same advantages as everyone else regardless of work ethic, ability, or merit.

Where is "here"? On this message board? Are you addressing anyone in particular?

Athletic competition, where there is always a winner, and always a loser, is the absolute antithesis of that view point.

No offense, but you clearly have a very simplistic understanding of "that viewpoint" if all you're able to interpret is this black and white little vision. Even the most popular Utopian fantasies (and yes, they are fantasies, for the most part) do not assert that everyone is on a completely equal playing field; that every game of chess has to end in a stalemate, followed by a handshake and a cup of tea.

It's survival of the fittest, literally. The "Darwinian Society" glorified. I mean, if you are one of those who want everyone to have just as much as everyone else, how can you even stand to watch, let alone financially support through buying tickets, sporting events which epitomize inequality?

Quite embarrassingly, you're confusing the notion that we as a people have certain basic and inalienable human rights with Darwin's notion that physical prowess and adaptability is tantamount to long-term survival.

Consider the real advantages gained by the winners. Especially Olympic athletes and professional sports figures. What with the big endorsement deals, etc. that make them incredibly wealthy and famous, and allows them to buy big houses, fancy cars, luxury vacations. What about all those other athletes who train just as hard, but just don't quite cut it? No money, no fame. Totally unfair isn't it? Do you find it offensive?

Can you stand it? Are your convictions that strong? And do you boycott sporting events?

I don't find it offensive. I'd love to be a filthy rich athlete with multi-million dollar endorsement deals, and maybe even a hot viking-woman of a wife. And then, just for fun, I'd probably cheat on her with as many hussies as I could find, cause a big scandal, and then, just when everybody thought all was lost, I'd use my superior athletic skills to wow everyone once again, and I'd reclaim my throne!

Hate to disapoint you Honedright, but there is equality in sports,it is called grading. Let us use Fomula 1 racing as an example, sure there are winners and losers but because these are the best at what they do, that gap is actually small. Sure the winner makes a mighty fine salary, but even the losers are doing pretty darn well in the salary department.

Originally Posted by honedright

I wonder how many of those who support "equality for all", as in equal outcomes in life, are also fans of athletics? Many here advocate a society where everyone is brought up (or some brought down?) to an equal level; given the same advantages as everyone else regardless of work ethic, ability, or merit. In fact, life itself, just being here, is all the merit that is required for some.

Ah, so that's why it disappeared on the other thread...

First of all, no one said that. Or anything even remotely close to that. I have not seen anyone here advocate for "equal outcomes in life." How much money you make, where you wind up in your career (or if you even have one), and whatever other measures of success a person has (everyone's definition is a bit different) is 10% luck and 90% grunt work.

I have not heard anyone here argue against that. Not even me, and I'm apparently the resident bleeding heart. I would personally take issue with that, but whatever.

Actually, I was a pretty competitive fencer for a while. I've got no problem with winning and losing.

But let's think about what sports games would be like if you cross-applied this concept to the issue that inspired you to write this, health care, and whether or not people "deserve" it.

First of all, the comparison is invalid to start with, because competing in a sports has the above mentioned qualities to it - 10% luck, 90% grunt work. How your health goes is pretty much 90% luck/genetics - in other words, things outside your control.

Second, as mentioned above, equality in sports actually is controlled by skill level and other factors - weight class in wrestling, for example.

But whatever. Let's run with it.

If you win a sports game, you get the fame, the fortune, etc.

If you lose, you have a spin a wheel with a few options on it. One is that you pay them $10,000. Another is that they take your house. Another is that they take you out back and shoot you.

Let's keep in mind, at one point in time, my sport of choice was an actual dual with actual swords where the loser died, or at the very least was going to be down and out for a while.

Do you think we should bring that back for athletic fencing? How about letting folks die on the field when they get hurt in rugby or football? Or letting a 150 pound wrestler spar with a 300-pounder for the Olympic gold?

If the answer is "no," then this is apples and oranges. Hell, this is apples and giraffes.

Nice thread. Might be my poor understanding but i do not really get the point how athletics can relate to equality (or loss of it) in society. I do like sports, i've played ice hockey myself when i was younger and until last year i still played in Armed Forces senior team. Big stars get big money, but they get it from people who have chosen to watch it and pay it. It is not away from pocket of somebody else.
There is a sort of equality in sports as well. Everyone has a change to win. You do not see paralympics team playing against NHL stars (although i'm not sure about show wrestling )

I believe in equality until some point. I think everyone should have to same basic rights and duties as a basis where they can built their life. Not everyone gets success, but in same basic cases nobody should be left helpless if they are unable to help themselves. Everyone has also a right to deny from getting help if so chosen.
Nothing is free in a society. Not even a health care if you think so. There is no free riders. Everybody pays with taxes. Even the poorest of the poor. I pay happily my 19% from my incomes. We have a saying that every advantage i enjoy in society is already paid by the generations of my parents and grandparents. The taxes i pay will benefit the generation of my children.

You are exactly right. That's why so many socialists like Soccer!

James.

I had gone through a 3 year apprentice program to get my journeyman ironworker's status. Shortly after I graduated I was at a union meeting where it was announced that the son of a long time member was being made a journeyman. I mentioned to the old timer sitting next to me that I didn't think it was fair that the fellow didn't have to go through apprentice school as I had done. He replied,"Every horse can't win the race."

Life is full of realizations that some run faster than others, throw longer or hit harder. IME we begin to learn this as soon as we start to interact with other children. I don't think that wanting people to have equal opportunity, health care, social security and public education equates to no winners or losers and a completely level playing field. OTOH, maybe my interpretation of what you're talking about is incorrect ?

As to sports, when I was a kid and we played sports I liked baseball and basketball. I used to box in the Police Athletic League and had aspirations to go pro until I discovered alcohol, pot and girls. Other than boxing I was never interested in watching sports then or now and I haven't watched that in decades. So I am a social liberal who isn't into watching sports but I am well acquainted with the fact that we are not all equally able. Every time I ride my mountain bike out on those technical single track trails some guys pass me and I pass others.