Thread: Big hub-bub in Arizona right now...

Mr. Jeff:

With all due respect, I don't get you. It seems, not surprisingly, based on the general theme of your post history that you're opposed to this new Arizona law because you feel it, in your opinion, will regulate and interfere with the lives of certain minority groups.

Yet you also seem based on your post history to be an ardent supporter of big government and the current administration. Bigger government absolutely regulates and interferes with people's lives in an escalating manner.

Opposed to regulating and interfering with the lives of minorities but in favor of increased regulation and interference with the lives of all U.S. citizens? At least I give you marks for being fair.

These are just my observations and maybe they're completely incorrect in regard to your convictions.

Having any kind of law on the books that doesn't really mean anything or is largely ignored by the government expected to enforce such a law is one of the many problems we have in this country and such occurrences are insult and injury to the citizenry.

Chris L

Originally Posted by billyjeff2

To all those who have expressed doubts about whether this new law will be applied "to the letter" versus enforced in a less-than-even-handed way by the Great State of Arizona:

How can anyone seriously doubt that Arizona wouldn't act in a proper and sensitive manner when it comes to issues related to race? It's not like it was one of those states that resisted recognizing Martin Luther King's birthday, or anything like that...

From Wikipedia:


"Sen. John McCain (Republican of Arizona) voted against the creation of the holiday to honor King, and later defended Arizona Republican Governor Evan Mecham's rescission of the state holiday in honor of King created by his Democratic predecessor. After his opposition grew increasingly untenable, McCain reversed his position, and encouraged his home state of Arizona to recognize the holiday despite opposition from Mecham.^[9]
In 1990, Arizonans were given the opportunity to vote to observe an MLK holiday. McCain successfully appealed to former President Ronald Reagan to support the holiday.^[10] Prior to that date, New Hampshire and Arizona had not observed the day. Throughout the 1990s, this was heavily criticized. Following the failure of the 1990 proposition to recognize the holiday in Arizona, the National Football League moved Super Bowl XXVII from Sun Devil Stadium in Tempe to the Rose Bowl in Pasadena, California.^[11]

Originally Posted by ChrisL

Having any kind of law on the books that doesn't really mean anything or is largely ignored by the government expected to enforce such a law is one of the many problems we have in this country and such occurrences are insult and injury to the citizenry.
Chris L

I agree. Washington has failed to do their sworn duty. They all need replaced this fall.

As I go back through the posts on this thread, I find it interesting that the folks raising the most fuss are from areas that are mainly not affectced by the situation on the southern border.
Folks want to bring race into this discussion. it's not about race.

I'm very tired of paying for people who come over illegally. We pay for their medical bills when they goto the emergency rooms. We pay for public eductaion for their children. We pay for their lack of insurance with higher premiums when they get into accidents and don't have insurance.
People who come into this country pay for very little to nothing to support society.
The people who employ them don't pay taxes for them, they just tend to hold it out and keep it for themselves. They don't have insurance of any kind. They work and send most of their money out of the country, so they don't even contribute that much to the local economy.

Those who are here legally work their ever living ass off. They have the true small business mentality. They work long hours and scrimp and save. They are my neighbors and I see them every day. I live in a working class barrio. My youngest goes to an elementary school where 85% of the school is hispanic. So please don't get me wrong, I appreciate their work ethic, and sense of communitiy pride.
Oh, they hate the illegals too....it makes it just that much harder for them.

So this is not a question of race, it's a question of doing something correctly and legally, or not.

Originally Posted by shutterbug

I'm very tired of paying for people who come over illegally. We pay for their medical bills when they goto the emergency rooms. We pay for public eductaion for their children. We pay for their lack of insurance with higher premiums when they get into accidents and don't have insurance.
People who come into this country pay for very little to nothing to support society.

Do you have any figures to support this?

Most migrants are young people, if they are illegally in the country not only is it unlikely that they will become seriously ill overnight (because they are generally young people) it is also unlikely that they would risk being caught by going to a hospital.

Again, migrants are young people, by the time they are settled down with a family, they are probably paying their taxes just like you are. How ever, as most of the west, including the US, has an aging population and considering migrants tend to start families younger (such is the nature of their culture) they actually have a positive effect.

Whilst I have no doubt that some, don't have vehicle insurance, I would also bet my bottom dollar that issue is not exclusive to a migrant population - Do you know how much that perceived issue costs YOU a year? and how much of that is down to migrants?

You don't have to believe any of this, of course. How ever, from what I studied (and I did study it) migration has a whole bunch of measurable benefits and a whole bunch of PERCEIVED costs.

Originally Posted by gregs656

Do you have any figures to support this?

Most migrants are young people, if they are illegally in the country not only is it unlikely that they will become seriously ill overnight (because they are generally young people) it is also unlikely that they would risk being caught by going to a hospital.

Again, migrants are young people, by the time they are settled down with a family, they are probably paying their taxes just like you are. How ever, as most of the west, including the US, has an aging population and considering migrants tend to start families younger (such is the nature of their culture) they actually have a positive effect.

Whilst I have no doubt that some, don't have vehicle insurance, I would also bet my bottom dollar that issue is not exclusive to a migrant population - Do you know how much that perceived issue costs YOU a year? and how much of that is down to migrants?

You don't have to believe any of this, of course. How ever, from what I studied (and I did study it) migration has a whole bunch of measurable benefits and a whole bunch of PERCEIVED costs.

Most Mexican illegals if they have issues especially medical and it's not an emergency would rather go back to Mexico for treatment or use some herbal country type remedy.

In general illegals if they are working and are paying into the system almost universally claim 10 exemptions of more on their withholding and they do not file and income taxes. The ones who use made up social security numbers or maybe YOUR social security number the money to social security for the false numbers goes into a suspense account SS has and just sits there apart from everything else. If they are using your number and you don't catch it when you file for SS you will be in for a big unpleasant surprise.

Originally Posted by shutterbug

The people who employ them don't pay taxes for them, they just tend to hold it out and keep it for themselves. They don't have insurance of any kind.

It is a two way business. Those who hire illegal immigrants are getting some economical benefit for it too. Aren't there any penalties for hiring such people? By making such act economically riskable wouldn't it be a sign for not even thinking of doing so.
At least here it goes like that. If someone comes here illegally, it is almost impossible to get a job. Not that we have much (or actually, almost not at all) illegals immigrants here.

With all due respect, I don't get you. It seems, not surprisingly, based on the general theme of your post history that you're opposed to this new Arizona law because you feel it, in your opinion, will regulate and interfere with the lives of certain minority groups.

Actually, my concern lies with the impact this law would have on other US citizens who would more likely be targeted.

Yet you also seem based on your post history to be an ardent supporter of big government and the current administration. Bigger government absolutely regulates and interferes with people's lives in an escalating manner.

That's exactly why I'm in favor of doing away with the FDA--let the marketplace determine whether people want to continue to buy drugs that harm or kill them. Enough of this big-government interference in our lives. And while we're at it, I'm really tired of the government regulation of unsafe cars. Again-let the marketplace sort this out. If Toyota wants to sell dangerous cars that maim or kill people, it's their right to do so. Market forces will weed this out. Eventually. After enough people die. Or get maimed.



Opposed to regulating and interfering with the lives of minorities but in favor of increased regulation and interference with the lives of all U.S. citizens? At least I give you marks for being fair.

These are just my observations and maybe they're completely incorrect in regard to your convictions.

Having any kind of law on the books that doesn't really mean anything or is largely ignored by the government expected to enforce such a law is one of the many problems we have in this country and such occurrences are insult and injury to the citizenry.

Originally Posted by ChrisL

Mr. Jeff:

With all due respect, I don't get you. It seems, not surprisingly, based on the general theme of your post history that you're opposed to this new Arizona law because you feel it, in your opinion, will regulate and interfere with the lives of certain minority groups.

Actually, my concern lies with the impact this law would have on other US citizens who would more likely be targeted.

Yet you also seem based on your post history to be an ardent supporter of big government and the current administration. Bigger government absolutely regulates and interferes with people's lives in an escalating manner.

That's exactly why I'm in favor of doing away with the FDA--let the marketplace determine whether people want to continue to buy drugs that harm or kill them. Enough of this big-government interference in our lives. And while we're at it, I'm really tired of the government regulation of unsafe cars. Again-let the marketplace sort this out. If Toyota wants to sell dangerous cars that maim or kill people, it's their right to do so. Market forces will weed this out. Eventually. After enough people die. Or get maimed.



Opposed to regulating and interfering with the lives of minorities but in favor of increased regulation and interference with the lives of all U.S. citizens? At least I give you marks for being fair.

These are just my observations and maybe they're completely incorrect in regard to your convictions.

Having any kind of law on the books that doesn't really mean anything or is largely ignored by the government expected to enforce such a law is one of the many problems we have in this country and such occurrences are insult and injury to the citizenry.

Chris L