? FROM THE ' WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE ' THREAD

[jcd]

Hmmmmm I am not seeing the difference in this two statements, unless you missed a Capital (G) on the word god, making it into the Judea-Christian "God" of Abraham....

The definitions refers to general gods, not God.

There is a subtle difference between:

1. Believing something doesn't exist (positive belief)
2. Not believing something exists (negative belief)

For example on the question of the Loch Ness Monster, I would say

"I don't think the Loch Ness Monster exists."

I wouldn't say

"I think the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist."

[Pete_S]

Your adding things to the definition of Athiest...

The thing is, we have a problem with the Cognitive part of the definition of a "god"

Many believe in an afterlife, or reincarnation, or even a Cosmic force, but none believe that it is a thinking being that is responsible...

It is just that slight difference that makes us Atheists, we don't believe in ANY deity but anything else is still possible..

Of course each person has their own belief system, and I am by all means not saying that all Atheists believe in an afterlife, but we can, and still be an Athiest...

An Agnostic has more of the "it can't be proved therefore it doesn't exist" attitude and again that varies, by each individual...I know Agnostics that believe there is a god but they don't like any of the definitions of that god... so they fall more in the "You can't understand nor define" category

As far as I've always understood, Atheism is disbelief-- or assigning a very low probability--to a supreme being and such things as the eternal nature of the soul and the afterlife, supernatural phenomena like I mentioned earlier, and other related things. Being Atheist/Agnostic myself, thats what I've always thought, and other atheists I've discussed it with/read essays by/etc are usually in the same boat. Most Atheists of this type I've encountered (including myself) feel that gods and the afterlife are coping mechanisms for dealing with death, and their religious philosophy stems from that.

Thats interesting though, I wasn't aware of Atheists that believe in an afterlife, and that the existence of a deity is what they have a problem with. It sounds almost like a kind of Deism.

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But JCD made a valid point, Atheism has had its meanings obscured, and I think many atheists could be defined as agnostic and vice-versa- to muddy the waters further. I don't think that there are many Atheists that would positively 100% state "There is no God" most just feel that it is very, very unlikely, and would appreciate proof either way, which makes them agnostic-ish, or maybe even agnostic, I'm not really sure where one line starts and the other ends.

[paco]

OP chiming in again, After reading these posts as said in the beginning i'm still not quite clear. the Agnostic i pretty much got, there's much leeway in it's definition depending on how much or which direction of the belief, however, on the Athiesim there seems to be two slightly different definitions being stated. So,

Let me ask it this way

Atheists -
1. BELIEVE THERE IS NO GOD.
2. Make the CONCLUSIVE statement = (forming an end or termination; especially putting an end to doubt or question) THERE IS NO GOD.

with answers being either 1 or 2

Just trying to get specific because the two are very different.

[Sailor]

It is almost impossible to describe these two without getting into complicated details.

Shortly, atheism can be divided in two: positive and negative atheism.

1. Positive atheism is denying the existence of God(s). = Believing there is no God(s)
2. In Negative atheism there is no belief in the existence of God(s), but there is no special need to deny the existence of such either. This is different from not-believing God(s). = There is no belief in existence or no-existence of God(s).

Agnostism is based on rationalism. There can be no rational (proven) way to believe in the existence of anything unnatural, as unnatural cannot be proven.

To make it more complicated, there is also Agnostic Atheism

[gssixgun]

Thats interesting though, I wasn't aware of Atheists that believe in an afterlife, and that the existence of a deity is what they have a problem with. It sounds almost like a kind of Deism.

Let's just change some words...

Soul = Lifeforce
Afterlife = Next dimension

So in this plane of existence you have your human body, but after death you lifeforce moves to the next dimension you then occupy a new body in a new place...(it doesn't matter where or what)


The only difference is that there is NO Deity that decides what happens to you... The is no tie to your behavior here in this life, to what happens to you in the next plane of existence...

This is still Atheisum... as there is no "God(s)" involved or needed, it just is...

What the point is here, is the exsitance of something / anything beyond this life is not tied to religion of any type at all...

It has always been my personal belief that all religions were developed for only one reason and that was control over the masses... Without the Gatekeeper concept (God(s)) in place there was no control of who would move to the afterlife...

Almost the same as the concept of Santa Claus "Checks his list twice, because...Only good little boys and girls get presents"

Sounds pretty close to "Only true believers get into Heaven"

Just some more thoughts

[JimmyHAD]

In my mind I've always thought that an atheist believes there is no supreme being and that the universe just happened. An agnostic, as the root word coming from the Greek signifies, doesn't know...... isn't sure one way or the other. There are degrees as well IMO. Some agnostics may be inclined to a belief in a supreme being of sorts. An impersonal creator rather than a personal God involved in the day to day affairs of man. We will either know for sure after death or if there is nothing we'll never know.

[Morty]

Like I mentioned before; labels are for jars. The world isn't structured with a list of rules we can depend on (ie: atheists believe this while agnostics believe that). We do have the illusion that hard and fast rules exist. Take math for instance. While 2+2=4 and the square root of 4=2, from what I read about Quantum Mechanics, everything we believed to be true about math disappears in the bending of space-time by gravity and the existence of multiple dimensions beyond the three we can see & time travel too. Heck, it seems more science fiction than science.

Puh-TAY-tow, puh-TAW-tow and all that. It isn't important how I label myself or how someone else labels me. What's important is what any given individual believes and it is most important to that individual.
Namaste,
Morty -_-

[trewornan]

Agnosticism comes in two types:

Philosophical Agnosticism - it's not possible to know anything beyond doubt.
Religious Agnosticism - it's not possible to know if there is a god beyond doubt.

Atheism is harder to define, a dictionary will generally define "atheist" as something along the lines of "one who denies the existence of a god or gods". Most self identified atheists will regard this as bias in the dictionary compilers attempting to place unrealistic expectations on atheists (you can't disprove an unfalsifiable hypothesis). Any decent philosophy textbook will also dismiss this definition as naive. Atheists tend to go back to the greek roots and say "atheist" means without a belief in a god or gods; a much easier position to defend.

Irrespective of your position on the term "atheist" it is possible to be both agnostic and atheist. For that matter you could be christian, etc and agnostic - if you believe the bible even Jesus had doubts and was thus an agnostic theist.

Many atheists, myself included, consider themselves agnostic atheists.

[paco]

HOW ABOUT ANSWERING THE ORIGINAL POSTERS QUESTIONS IN THE 23RD POST ! i'M CURIOUS ABOUT NOT BELIEVING OR STATING THERE IS NO GOD. please

[JimmyHAD]

HOW ABOUT ANSWERING THE ORIGINAL POSTERS QUESTIONS IN THE 23RD POST ! i'M CURIOUS ABOUT NOT BELIEVING OR STATING THERE IS NO GOD. please

IMO you're asking too much. When I was a kid and my mom told me there was no God I accepted that. I believed it. At times in my life I have believed there was not and at other times that there is. Still at other times I wasn't sure one way or the other. Being in a 12 step program years ago taught me not to have contempt before investigation and led me to belief. This has not eliminated doubt but then we get into faith. Another thread I guess.