A question on Christian Scripture.

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06-19-2010, 03:01 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandrw

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you believe that God created us with sin already a part of our nature. And not that sin began with the act of disobedience in eating the apple. At least in mankind. Or am I miss interpreting what you meant.

:OT
The question of 'original sin' is one that has been debated for more than a thousand years and is continuing to be debated today. Matter of fact I'm reading Jonathan Edwards on Original Sin at work for the past few weeks. Here is a Wiki article on the differing viewpoints. I'm with Reverend Edwards and the Calvinist position. YMMV.
06-19-2010, 03:31 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Havent you read the story of Eve in the garden, or Judas at the last supper, havent you read the book of Job. or the gospels account of Jesus in the wilderness.. If you read the Gospels you will find out that there are 4 areas of Jesus' ministry and they would be as follows;teaching, healing, miracles and the casting out of demons.

Do you really think Judas was such an evil person? Really?

I am one that believes that Judas was one of Jesus' closest friends and disciples. It was Jesus that asked Judas to turn him in. Only Judas loved Jesus enough to begin the series of events that would allow Him to be crucified that he could rise again.

Had Judas not turned in Jesus, there would have never been a resurrection.

No resurrection, no salvation. No salvation, no religion and we would not be having this discussion 2000 years later.

No, this is not written in scripture. It is one of those things that is between the lines.
06-19-2010, 04:16 PM
gandrw

Sorry to go off topic. Maybe we should start another thread to discuss things further that are off topic from Kevin's original post.
06-19-2010, 05:48 PM
JBHoren

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

The question arises from the metaphor of the following King James scripture: 1Corinthians 3:1
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

[snip]

I might further suggest to guide your thoughts consider this, which sounds to be a direct command* requiring a well balanced meal of solid food :John 18:11 


Jesus was a Jew. He was born a Jew, lived his entire life as a Jew, and died a Jew. Everything he said and did was within the context of being a Jew. If he spoke about "milk and meat", it probably had to do with the laws of Kashrut (כשרות); specifically, על תבשל גדי בחלב אמו (don't cook a kid in its mother's milk). Hence, no combining meat and dairy at the same meal... no "cheeseburger in Paradise".

Can "meat and milk" be used as parable? Certainly. Just as milk (dairy) is more easily digested than meat (and the laws of Kashrut state that meat can be eaten after dairy, but not the opposite), so to one should begin with simpler ideas, before moving to "meatier" ones, etc.

Jesus, however, was first a Torah-abiding Jew, and only second a theosophist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

If you look at the 10 commandments you will notice that they are divided into two categories, the first category concerns your relationship to God, the second concerns your relationship with your neighbor (mankind). Someone once asked Jesus which of the commandments were the most important and Jesus told him that if he "loved the Lord his God with all his heart and with all his soul and loved his neighbor as he loved himself" that he had fulfilled all of the commandments of Moses as well as those of the prophets." If you can do these two seemingly simple things you "will go and sin no more."

There are 613 commandments in the Torah; some are positive (do this), and some are negative (don't do that); some are בין אדם למקום (between man and God), and some are בין אדם לחברו (between man and his fellow man); some are to be done daily (prayer), some weekly (Sabbath), some seasonally (holidays), some only once (circumcise your son), and some never (agricultural laws applying only in Israel). All of them are of equal importance.

If someone asked Jesus "which of the commandments were the most important", Jesus would have realized that either this person was "trolling", or a simpleton. In either case, the answer attributed to him is, quite simply, the concatenation of two verses from the Torah (verses which a Jew, in daily prayers, repeats several times each day): ואהבת את ה' אלהיך בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך ([a positive commandment to] love God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might) and ואהבת לרעך כמוך ([a positive commandment to] love your neighbor as yourself).

Although the Torah specifically states that there are seven commandments given to all of Mankind, the two aforementioned commandments certainly form the most minimal and all-encompassing moral framework for living one's life.

Jesus, however, was not a "minimalist".
06-19-2010, 07:33 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandrw

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you believe that God created us with sin already a part of our nature. And not that sin began with the act of disobedience in eating the apple. At least in mankind. Or am I miss interpreting what you meant.

I believe God created us in his image like scripture says and I believe God is without fault or sin he is Prefect. So if he created us in his image why would he put sin in our nature? I believe he gave us free will to fallow him. because that gives him joy to have his creation chose to love and worship him as there creator. That free will allowed Eve to make the dissuasion to disobey and sin when tempted by the snake who I believe was Satan in the form of a snake. But I do not believe there was sin in Adam and Eve till that point.

He created us with a full range of emotions.

He is full of emotion. Old Testament scripture is full of examples of negative emotion on the part of Him. Anger. Spitefulness. Revenge. Jealousy, etc.

The story of Cain and Abel shows us the first example of jealousy, and yet no mention of Satan being behind it. It was entirely generated from within.

So here we are, 6000 years later having the same set of emotions. So no, I do not believe that the occurence of these emotions is a temptation on the part of Satan. I feel that some are just more cognizant of the emotion than others and why it is wrong.
06-19-2010, 09:02 PM
kevint

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandrw

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you believe that God created us with sin already a part of our nature. And not that sin began with the act of disobedience in eating the apple. At least in mankind. Or am I miss interpreting what you meant.

I believe God created us in his image like scripture says and I believe God is without fault or sin he is Prefect. So if he created us in his image why would he put sin in our nature? I believe he gave us free will to fallow him. because that gives him joy to have his creation chose to love and worship him as there creator. That free will allowed Eve to make the dissuasion to disobey and sin when tempted by the snake who I believe was Satan in the form of a snake. But I do not believe there was sin in Adam and Eve till that point.

It was the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

We can be sure that it was no accident, and just as surely not really a choice. If it happened as described in Genesis, then most assuredly an All Knowing God could see far enough to know what "choice" would be arrived at.
Isaiah 4610Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Consider this.
Matthew 12

33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

These words to not appear accidentally or by coincidence.

By personal belief is the Bible is not perfect, undiluted. When presented as such it is not understood. No other religion is perfect either.

If you consider that "all things work together for the good...." Then maybe some reading in bhagavad gita, and some popularized quantum physics will do you some good too.

I am not hoping to change anyone's belief. I have not read any of these scriptures for years. I do feel drawn to certain words as they crop up in our discussion as I recall their occurrences within the Bible. I search for them and bring them to you like a good servant would. ;)
06-19-2010, 11:32 PM
paco

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

I

By personal belief is the Bible is not perfect, undiluted. When presented as such it is not understood. No other religion is perfect either.

If you consider that "all things work together for the good...." Then maybe some reading in bhagavad gita, and some popularized quantum physics will do you some good too.

I am not hoping to change anyone's belief. I have not read any of these scriptures for years. I do feel drawn to certain words as they crop up in our discussion as I recall their occurrences within the Bible. I search for them and bring them to you like a good servant would. ;)

As stated before the foundation of christianity is what one believes of Jesus Christ. If one dosen't believe He is Who He said He is he cannot claim to be a Christian as such a person would be calling Him a liar, madman or conman. If he does believe Jesus is who He claimed to be[GOD] then one sould belive that what he says is true. Scripture says all scripture is GOD breathed

Passage 2 Timothy 3:16:
16(A)All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

King James Version (KJV)

Passage 2 Peter 1:21:

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

so should we say that GOD is NOT perfect since it is being said that the Bible is not perfect?

Just my logic .
06-20-2010, 12:05 AM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by paco

so should we say that GOD is NOT perfect since it is being said that the Bible is not perfect?

Just my logic .

Apples and oranges, my friend.

The Bible may have been inspired by Him, but it was written and rewritten by man.

We really do not need to have that discussion of the errors in translation that have occured over the past 3000 years.

Man is not perfect. For if he was, he would be divine and His equals. We are creatures created in an image, but not an exact reproduction.
06-20-2010, 12:17 AM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

Do you really think Judas was such an evil person? Really?

In the gospel of John, chapter 12 it tells the story of Jesus being anointed with a costly perfumed ointment and Judas asked if the money spent would not be better off being spent on the poor, he asked this not because he cared for the poor, but because he carried the money box for the disciples and frequently stole from it.

In the Gospel of Luke chapter 21;37 - chapter 22:6 we find out that Judas has determined to betray Jesus and at that moment Satan entered into him. In other Gospel accounts Jesus at the last supper(Passover) tells Judas to go and do what he has already decided upon and at that moment Satan entered into him.
06-20-2010, 01:08 AM
kevint

Dear Paco; can you further extend your logic to the creation of man? For as you have said man cannot be perfect; is it then that God cannot be perfect? You did just say that man cannot be perfect even though it was written clearly to be complete; perfect as your Father in heaven is complete; perfect.

let's look a few verses above your quote:

2Timothy1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the form of godliness but denying its power
You can argue that it means to be perfect in the coming glory; however that sounds like denying the power; as the Kingdom of God is within you.

Can you do me a favor; what words are used here in its original language? 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,...

now lets just move things to a more convenient order
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

that sounds clearer to me, how bout you?

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