A question on Christian Scripture.

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06-17-2010, 02:33 AM
paco
[QUOTE=kevint;610918]KJV
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

ESV
48(CF) You therefore must be(CG) perfect,(CH) as your heavenly Father is perfect.

NIV
48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

YLT
48ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.
NCV
48 So you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

QUOTE]

I believe you are interpreting the word incorrectly, it does not mean without sin.

<TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="50%">Original Word</TD><TD width="50%">Word Origin</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%">teleioß</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%">from (5056)</TD></TR><TR><TD width="50%">Transliterated Word</TD><TD width="50%">TDNT Entry</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%">Teleios</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%">8:67,1161</TD></TR><TR><TD width="50%">Phonetic Spelling</TD><TD width="50%">Parts of Speech</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%">tel'-i-os<SCRIPT type=text/javascript src="http://www.biblestudytools.com/resource/javascript/lexiconaudio.js"></SCRIPT><OBJECT class=inlineimg title="Big Grin" border=0 alt="" classid="clsid:D</OBJECT></TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%">Adjective </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Definition</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>
1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. 1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
06-17-2010, 03:16 AM
kevint

What is sin?

The lines do not require the word perfect, teleios, or sinless.

It says: Be ye as your Father is.

Sin is very much the feeling of being incomplete, yet unfinished. We look for things to make us complete.

:soapbox:Why is it necessary to imagine that there is some powerful evil spirit out there waiting to trick us? It has been said the greatness of a people can be seen in the power of their enemies. Sometimes in history we see that the victors in battle have greatly exaggerated the abilities of their enemies. It is hard to be a hero if you return saying they were all old men with sticks. This serves only the ego, to make one seem more powerful, a great and mighty warrior.

Just like Charles Manson said (approximately quoted): "The Devil? If you want to see the devil, just let me out on that highway." All of his wild imaginings and supposed great purpose essentially boils down to a damaged child and revenge for a lost recording contract. and psychosis.

For me at least I see that I am my own worst enemy. I want to be warm in winter and cool in summer. I want to be somewhere else and get there fast. I want to look sharp, act smart and get paid twice just for being so cool to hang out with. If I buy this and do that and wait for the future to hurry up it will be just like that. Maybe even be king of the world.

Aren't those the things that keep us from realizing who and what we are, the depth of mystery and awe that is life and the ultimate perfection that is simply Being?
06-17-2010, 05:37 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by paco

Well, Where do you see i said the blame was on the devil, I said we are influenced, Just as man's original sin Eve was only influnced by the devil and Adam was only influenced by Eve, both had free will and chose.
Again this is off topic so let'sallow the post to stay on track. Pm if you wish.

being influenced by the devil.

the devil made me do it.

Sorry, still a cop-out no matter how you dress it up. For any man with freewill , he can choose to do evil, or not. Blaming it on the devil is weak.
06-17-2010, 06:03 PM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desdinova

being influenced by the devil.

Blaming it on the devil is weak.

Nobody is blaming it on the devil, we have to take responsibility for our part, this is why there is confession as well as repentance. Thank God for His forgiveness.
06-17-2010, 06:04 PM
gandrw

Being influenced and the devil made me do it are to different things in my opinion.

We are influenced to do many things and make many choices but we are not made to do them. Like buying a car we may find that an affective commercial or an endorsement may sway are dissuasion to buy one over another. No one forces us to sing on the dotted line.

If there where no negative influences in the world then would there be any negative actions? If there where no adversity to over come would there be any victory?
You can't win a battle if there is no one to fight against.

You can't have free will if there is no choice to make. And those choices are always influenced one way or another. When I make a wrong choice I don't say the devil made me do it. I know it was me that made the choice.

Yes saying the devil made me do it is a cop-out. I haven't heard any one here say that though. They have said that there is negative influence in the world. If there where no negative influence in the world than there would be no sin.

We are the ones that make the choice and there for are at fault for making the wrong choice. That is why God sent Jesus to die for our sins to give us the gift of salvation. We have the free will to choose wether or not to accept that gift.
06-17-2010, 08:01 PM
JimmyHAD

Putting belief or faith in God aside for a moment to consider belief in the devil. Satan, the bible says, was the most beautiful angel that God made. Cast out of heaven because of pride, he is the enemy of God and man...... according to the bible. So to believe this I suppose it requires belief in the bible's veracity.

For some cafeteria style belief is also common. Accepting what they like and ignoring or rejecting the rest. There is no doubt that there are contradictions and perhaps mistakes within the bible but I personally don't throw the baby out with the bath water on account of human error. The scriptures were transmitted orally for centuries before they were transcribed.

Many individual scribes copied them until the printing press came along. So there are variations in texts, in gospel narratives and in the other books. Questions of authorship and the selection of the canon. In spite of all of that I believe the basic tenants to be true and correct. That there is a devil with a demons is one of them. That there is evil in the world is a certainty no matter what we believe.
06-17-2010, 09:06 PM
Desdinova

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Putting belief or faith in God aside for a moment to consider belief in the devil. Satan, the bible says, was the most beautiful angel that God made. Cast out of heaven because of pride, he is the enemy of God and man...... according to the bible. So to believe this I suppose it requires belief in the bible's veracity.

Satan was cast from heaven?

Sorry, but I don't see where any scripture has made the definitive link between Lucifer, the serpent of Eden and Satan.
All of those links have beeen made by the Catholic church.

Near as I can ascertain, they are 3 separate entities.

And let's not forget, Lucifer, the Morning Star, was not cast from heaven because of evil or vanity. He was cast because as a divine being created of fire saw no reason to bow and worship the talking apes that were cast of dirt and dust. He was also not alone in this position. I believe the Quran identifies 1/3 of the angels following Lucifer in this. That's a pretty significant number of angels. Not to mention any that agreed with Lucifer but chose to "suck it up" to avoid expulsion.

It's like me demanding you to worship the ants that crawl at your feet. Would you if commanded?
06-17-2010, 09:18 PM
JimmyHAD

:OTSince we are going off topic and it is Kevin's thread I will be brief. Here is a quick overview. Draw your own conclusions, I know that you will. :)
06-18-2010, 12:11 AM
kevint

Whether we might overcome the conditioned mind or a supernatural life devouring demon does not especially matter. Victory is victory.

Just as dead is dead. It will not matter to your rotting corpse if it came by microscopic bacteria or super-sonic 50 caliber exploding bullet.

where is it that Lucifer tempts us? Does he stop you on the way to your car or with annoying phone calls as you sit down to supper?

It is said that Satan is the ruler, god of this world. Beyond the literal belief in the devil what could we point to as the dominate factor that has brought human society and this planet to its present state?

Could you agree that it is the thinking human mind?

A little while ago we were talking about choice. Which one of you would choose pain over joy, poverty over abundance. For as long as we remain identified with our thoughts, choice remains an illusion. What you choose will continue to be a product of your conditioned mind. This is why it seems that some people do choose pain, or to remain poor.

James 4

1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
=======

Double Minded?
06-18-2010, 02:19 AM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevint

where is it that Lucifer tempts us? Does he stop you on the way to your car or with annoying phone calls as you sit down to supper?

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has set up temptation for me. If I don't have faith in anything else I have faith in that. The closer you come to Christ the more the devil will try and circumvent that. If you begin to come close it will happen, I guarantee it. Kevin, since you are so fond of quoting scripture I would draw your attention to;

Matthew 18

1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

If you're of an intellectual bent you may eventually get there but a little child who is not filled with skepticism and trying to pick the scriptures apart will get there quicker. I'll also leave you with this quote from William Shakespeare, a man who had a way with words, "The devil can site scripture for his own purpose! An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek." [Merchant Of Venice] :)

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