A question on Christian Scripture.

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Originally Posted by razorjoe

The Holy Spirit is using this type of language to illastrate a meaning which the avage unsaved person will not understand unless he is bornagain and has the Holy Spirit of God in him or her to guide them. The meaning is God likens the new Christian as a babe or baby in Christ. And for a baby you can only give it certain types of food for the age of the baby for it to handle it in it's system. Babies start off with milk then as they grow they can handle vegtables, fruit, bread, then of course meat. If a young Christian doesn't grow spiritualy then the young Christian can only handle milk and not meat. He has not grown as a Christian to handle another words hard spiritual problems in scripture or in his Church or in his life. I hop this will help you.:soapbox: With Christs' Love razorjoe!:tu

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Thank you razor Joe; however, I have already established my understanding the metaphor of the babe receiving only milk. What we are looking for is the solid food that feeds the spirit of the mature believer.

I want you to show me those scriptures that show one how to attain spiritual enlightenment, to be filled with the peace of God, so there is no fear, no spiteful word, no violence; only love.

I am afraid I do not see these things acting in the world except for very very very few rare individuals. Some people show aspects of virtue but in an instant can turn showing pain and fear in the form of anger, lashing out.
think about the typical marriage -who else can push our buttons as well as the spouse- our tender love turns instantly to biting the others head off once the stress goes up just a little. Real love does not act that way.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

If you read John 17, there is a really poignant prayer. In verse 11, Jesus prayed that "those whom you have given me" would be "one, even as we are one". Then, he prayed for future believers who believed on him through "their word" (verse 20)... John 17 is pretty powerful example of what Jesus had in mind for us (believers), IMHO. He expected unity and oneness of mind as well as obedience...

Matt 7:21

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Yes Paul. It seems to be rather clear that, according to the NT, there is one truth. The holy spirit is supposed to guide one to that truth, interpret scripture, and yet even today there is the same divisions within the Church. They say, yes minor disagreement is OK as long as we agree on the fundamental dogma- the Divinity of Christ. and some few other things I think.

It seems that much of the regular old teaching of the church largely defines itself by the existence of the others; non baptist; non believers; sinners etc. They do not seem to consider the unity and oneness of all life

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Originally Posted by kevint

Yes Paul. It seems to be rather clear that, according to the NT, there is one truth. The holy spirit is supposed to guide one to that truth, interpret scripture, and yet even today there is the same divisions within the Church. They say, yes minor disagreement is OK as long as we agree on the fundamental dogma- the Divinity of Christ. and some few other things I think.

It seems that much of the regular old teaching of the church largely defines itself by the existence of the others; non baptist; non believers; sinners etc. They do not seem to consider the unity and oneness of all life

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The Holy Spirit guides those who seek it to the truth (not by direct operation but through the Gospel - Rom. 1:16).

Regarding unity, Jesus expected unity among believers but not with all life or mankind. In fact, he expected division within individual households (Luke 12:51-53). Those who weren't willing to choose him over their family were even deemed not worthy (Matt 10:37)

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

it is, and one gets there "through faith" - that is the simple and correct answer

That grace is not of oneself (it is the gift of God), but people tend to take it upon their own selves anyway

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You see, in the past when I would have called myself a Christian, I was never able to access this to effect any real long term change in my life. Once the situation that sent me pleading had diminished I would soon return back to "having fun". It seemed as though the only power to do any changing was mustered of my own will. There was never any food available that'd stick to the ribs. In fact it seemed most of what worked for others was environmental. What kept them in check was their status within the group, their reputation, or perhaps even more, fear of damnation.

Those limits are not too far removed from the same limits that kept me, or any average person in society working within the system, taking care of your own so to speak. In good times I could be happy, but stress and worry would put me right down. Jealousy, hate, anger seemed just as normal as trust, affection and happiness.

It seems as though if one can accept the cosmos as more than material existence, as a product of creative intelligence, then isn't everything a gift of God?

Years ago, I read in Luke 6 v.46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"

You're right! I should not. This is one reason why I do not call myself a Christian. If I were to design and build a cabinet and the door fall off should I blame the wood, or the hinge? Then what, toss it in the fire? Maybe I should have chosen better wood or a more sturdy hinge if I had certain expectations of how it should function.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

The Holy Spirit guides those who seek it to the truth (not by direct operation but through the Gospel - Rom. 1:16).

Regarding unity, Jesus expected unity among believers but not with all life or mankind. In fact, he expected division within individual households (Luke 12:51-53). Those who weren't willing to choose him over their family were even deemed not worthy (Matt 10:37)

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I have read Luke and did not quite know what to make of it. There are divisions that occur because of Christianity. Just think of that sometimes stereotypical preacher's daughter gone wild. I 'm just not sure what is the intention in those verses.

I do understand that is the way of the world, does that say to you we should strive for division?

(not finding Holy spirit in Rom 1:16)

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Originally Posted by Desdinova

Any New Testament book that is not John. Luke, Mark or Matthew are not the words of Christ.

They are the words and opinions of Paul. Paul never met Jesus and was dead-set against James who did receive the word of Christ directly.



So personally, I only read the 4 books mentioned above.

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I believe we are missing your further input. earlier I only wished to limit any arguments that may arise from disputes of authenticity, not to dissuade you from further participation. I humbly invite you to add your insights from your preferred reading list.

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Originally Posted by kevint

Years ago, I read in Luke 6 v.46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"

You're right! I should not. This is one reason why I do not call myself a Christian. If I were to design and build a cabinet and the door fall off should I blame the wood, or the hinge? Then what, toss it in the fire? Maybe I should have chosen better wood or a more sturdy hinge if I had certain expectations of how it should function.

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That analogy falls rather flat on it's back. Maybe you should see it like this:

If you gave the wood free will, then asked it who would serve you in making a cabinet, told it what to do to build such cabinet, and it didn't listen. Should you blame yourself?

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Originally Posted by kevint

I have read Luke and did not quite know what to make of it. There are divisions that occur because of Christianity. Just think of that sometimes stereotypical preacher's daughter gone wild. I 'm just not sure what is the intention in those verses.

I do understand that is the way of the world, does that say to you we should strive for division?

(not finding Holy spirit in Rom 1:16)

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Well, I'll apologize for not spelling it out. The HS is the revealer; that's a common theme throughout the NT (if you'd like I can point to several passages). He revealed the Gospel and that's what has the power for salvation (Rom. 1:16).

Do we strive for division? "Come out from among them, and be ye separate saith the Lord" (II Cor. 6:17)

Martian Luther was an ordained priest who called himself a Christian but didn't have saving faith. The HS came to him one day when he was reading the book of Romans and the Christian reformation was soon to be born.

John Wesley was a young man who had grown up in a Christian family of ministers and had gone to church all of his life. He went to divinity school and became a pastor and a missionary but he didn't have salvation. The HS came to him while he was at a bible study meeting listening to someone read the introduction to Martian Luther's commentary on the book of Romans. Wesley later wrote that he felt his heart strangely warmed.

My encounter came when I was 37 and having found out that the AA program was based on the sermon on the mount, the book of James, and the 13th chapter of first Corinthians I decided to read the bible for the first time in my life to try and prove to myself whether it was valid or not. One night the book of Romans did the same thing for me that it had done for Martian Luther and the HS came to me.

The bluegrass singing group, the Stanley Brothers recorded a song called "I Can Tell You The Time." It says, "I can tell you the time, I can take you to the place, where the Lord saved me, on that wonderful day." For me it was like that. It is a supernatural experience that cannot be accurately or scientifically described.

Looking for an explanation of what Christianity is as if one were learning how to hone or shave with a straight razor ..... i.e. what is the micron size, or grit rating and how many laps on the finishing stone ... is not applicable to the journey IME. If you open your mind to it and just read the book, pray daily and ask God to come to you, one of these days you will, like Paul the apostle, be able to say that you've experienced "the peace of God that passeth all understanding."

With all due respect, if the HS/God/Jesus (whatever) comes to someone and causes them to be saved in a supernatural sense, but doesn't do that to everyone, they are to blame for people not being saved. There's no way around that. Or all are going to be saved.

What I think happens is people have an epiphany about religion, but it's not the direct operation of the HS. If it is, John Calvin was right (which makes the Bible wrong), and all of this is just academic (of course some think it already is). :)