Thread: NY man shot 21 times by police ...... expected to live

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

No matter how good you are at the range when you're in a gun fight that all goes out the window unless you practice so much when your body goes into brain off mode your training takes over. Also all the practice at shooting at a target is worthless when firing at a moving target and police in this country do not do moving target practice unless you get to go to some fancy firearms course usually sponsored by a Federal Agency.

The FBI actually had reduced velocity 10mm rounds so I would imagine the outrageous cost of the ammo was part of the problem maybe the size of the gun too. My agency had custom loaded 40 S&W rounds by Federal and they were ultra high velocity to the point we had to have both H&K and baretta custom reinforce the pistols otherwise the frames were cracking.

If I recall the FBI switched to address the problem
of auto windshields being at a deflecting angle such that
a different round was needed.

Reinforcing frames is a common need. Powerful handguns going back
to the 357 in the '60s had fragile frames that did not hold up to intense
range/ practice. Almost all "new" handguns needed at least one
revision.

And as others indicated it is hard to hit anything with a handgun (or
long gun, howitzer included) without training and practice.

Most municipalities no longer have a basement range and no longer
fund practice ammo for their officers.

AND it is a shame that they need them at all.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

I wonder how NYC's finest are trained in these times in contrast to how you were prepared?

It would really be sad if they are forced to spend more time sitting in classes learning on how to be sensitive about trendy social issues by charlatans with phd's, than for the day where they may have to sacrifice there lives on duty.

Yup, the comments in the local paper sites are already saying this guy just hit the lottery and will be getting a multimillion dollar pay-day. What sad times we live in.

Jordan

[QUOTE I know it's unfair to compare the accuracy of a French officer using a .22 to that of an nypd officer using a 9mm obviously the larger round is harder to control but I feel that a accuracy of approx. 50% is very much to low especially when it places bystanders and fellow officers at risk. I find the issue of accuracy much more of a problem than the overwhelming force used, as long as the suspect is discovered to have somehow threatened those nearby requiring deadly force [/QUOTE]

If you are referring to the French police issued SIG-Sauer SIG Pro SP 2022 pistol, developed for French police and gendarmerie forces, it is comes in 9x19mm Para, .357SIG, .40 S&W. Not .22. The model number probably made you think it was only a .22. They are also issued 9mm submachine guns.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

I wonder how NYC's finest are trained in these times in contrast to how you were prepared?

It would really be sad if they are forced to spend more time sitting in classes learning on how to be sensitive about trendy social issues by charlatans with phd's, than for the day where they may have to sacrifice there lives on duty.

Standard pistol training hasn't really changed that drastically over the years. It's basically shooting at a static target. They have changed what the target looks like and they have changed the shooting distances emphasizing closer targets and they have changed the reloading drills and some shooting positions and included how to unjam a pistol in the field but that's about it.

I've been to federal govt run courses where it involves shooting at moving targets and running and shooting and shooting from a variety of radical positions like shooting on your back on the ground between your legs and similar.

elmer said it long ago bring the bigest gun you can shoot well to a gun fight. if your life was on the line and you had time to chose would you pick up that 9mm or that 357? old school that iam the magnum wins every time

Quote Cutalot: elmer said it long ago bring the bigest gun you can shoot well to a gun fight. if your life was on the line and you had time to chose would you pick up that 9mm or that 357? old school that iam the magnum wins every time


IMHO your responsibility should be to consider where it might have to be fired in a self defense situation. In an unpopulated area, if you can handle magnum loads go for it.

The NY, and most other LEO, carry what their departments dictate. Here is Sou FL many departments have gone to the .40 S&W. Personal carry for civilians with CCW permits can pretty much be the permit holder's choice. In order to get a permit here you have to go through a minimal amount of training and instruction. Best if the person continues to improve their skills of course. Probably some do and some don't.

I've shot a heck of a lot of magnum ammo down range in my time but carry a 380 or a 9 for weight and size considerations. Concealment must be considered too. I can group pretty well @ 25 yds and closer punching paper with anything up to and including 44 magnum. Lord willing I'll never have to test my skills on flesh and blood.

I've read through this several times and I keep coming back to the same thing. The 9mm is not the problem. Either the guy was hit in the limbs with most if not all of the shots, or else the ammo did not perform as it should have. The fact that the other guy only had one bullet left in his body leads me to wonder if the ammo did not expand as it should have. A good jacketed hollowpoint from a 9mm fired into the chest should neutrailize someone over 80% of the time (it might even be close to 90% iirc). Heck, the ammo I use in my .380 is better than 80% for single shot stopping power.

I carry pistols in several different calibers, depending on the circumstance. (I only carry one at a time, but I have several that I choose from.) I have faith that all of them will do what they are intended to do, so long as the shot placement is good and the ammo performs the way it is designed to.
The difficult part would be shot placement. As noted in several other posts, adrenaline will wreak havoc on one's ability to shoot accurately.

Anyone here ever talk to someone who was in an actual gunfight for their lives? The response is always pretty much the same no matter if its an LEO or military or how good a shot you are. First it's panic, then it's tunnel vision, then the body goes into automatic and the brain shuts down. For many who have been shot all they remember is the muzzle flash and the sensation. Many never even hear a noise because your hearing vanishes too. Guys can carry a gun like a glock with 17 rounds and fire them all off in seconds without even realizing how many they've fired and not even realizing they are continuing to pull the trigger on an empty weapon.

Those are the realities. Anyone who says in such a situation they are going to think about round placement or think period is deluding himself.