Thread: Gallup Poll: 4 in 10 believe man created by God 10,000 years ago

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Yes it is. You said man invented God. That means you said there is no god (outside of the realm of man's imagination). That means, by necessity, that God did not inspire the writing of the Bible (according to you). Again, begging the question.

I said the concept of god was invented by humans. I'm assuming nothing.
There is no circular reasoning.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Either way, you believe something. If you take any stance one way or the other, it requires you to beg the question.

I have no stance on how the universe started. I just say I don't know.
It might even be something we can't know.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

I'm the only one in this conversation (that I recall) that says I truly don't know, but I believe...

Thereby, NOT begging the question because I'm not assuming anything true. I'm telling you what I believe.

I said saying "the Universe is the evidence of God" is begging the question.

There's an interesting question under the surface here, and that is whether all beliefs should be viewed/treated equally. It may promote harmony on SRP to do so, and if that is the goal, I completely understand (I really do), but I also suspect that privately most of us would answer in the negative.

For example, if one person says he believes there are no deities, while the second person says he believes in a strict understanding of the God of Abraham, while the third person says he believes in multiple pagan gods, it's expected that (as gentlemen) they are to show mutual respect to each other.

However, if a fourth person steps up and says he believes his potbellied pig literally created the heavens and earth, I think most people would consider him a bit of a fool - assuming he is sincere about that belief. Should they (we) still show him respect by refraining from ridiculing his belief? What if I'm standing on a rooftop and saying I think I can fly? I hope some of you would disabuse me of *that* belief.

What's the difference, really? That some beliefs are more established, i.e. shared by more people?

I'd like to hear thoughts on this, because these kinds of threads often seem to border on thinly veiled hostility, imo. It would be nice to have a clear set of guidelines, or, barring that, to consider such topics off-limits entirely. I'd be fine with either route, personally.


*Edit*
It occurs to me that I might have a fuzzy recollection about reading that a member here has a beloved potbellied pig as a pet. Or maybe that was just George Clooney? Either way, please understand that I didn't intend to single anyone out with my silly example. Unless it was George Clooney, in which case I reckon he's used to it.

This forum, though very interesting, is probably not equipped, shall we say, to adequately dispose of a topic such as this has become. There are some interesting points being brought up. I would invite the members here who wish to debate their favorite position on theism or atheism to my favorite forum for such matters, Rational Skepticism. That place exists for disagreement. Typically, a thread such as this on a shaving forum causes significant disagreement, and shaving forums don't tend to tolerate such disagreement well.

Look for me, The_Metatron, and start up a post. In no case will you be subject to a personal attack, but your positions will. Ruthlessly. You have to be able to separate the two.

See you there, I hope.

Originally Posted by TheMetatron

...shaving forums don't tend to tolerate such disagreement well...

This isn't your typical shaving forum.

Originally Posted by HNSB

This isn't your typical shaving forum.

I completely disag...

Wait. Maybe you're right about that.

I am arguing about using the bible as a book of facts.
When it comes to things like the age of the earth, I have the laws of physics and the evidence on my side. All those things confirm each other and can also be tested by predicting things and then checking those predictions.

The '10000 years' myth can even be a belief. But calling it science and teaching it as such... yes, I call that stupid. You seem to say that under no circumstance should I use that word.

To call it science is to completely fail to understand what 'science' is.
Look, I don't know what caused the world to come into being. Neither do you. There are several creation myths, and based on which belief you have, you believe one or the other. And I don't belittle that.

However, denying the entire corpus of verifiable science in favor of something that has NO basis in observable reality, and to call that thing science...

Originally Posted by northpaw

What's the difference, really? That some beliefs are more established, i.e. shared by more people?

I'd like to hear thoughts on this, because these kinds of threads often seem to border on thinly veiled hostility, imo. It would be nice to have a clear set of guidelines, or, barring that, to consider such topics off-limits entirely. I'd be fine with either route, personally.

Thanks for most interesting post and thoughts.

Personally i *believe* that religions and science serve for whole different purposes. They both try to explain the world but on a different levels. While science is based on the facts and theories proven to be exact this far then religion is rather individual peoples gain to reach for the greater, 'spiritual' truth or harmony that science will never be able or even willing to explain.

As an agnostic i rather look for the facts and evidences what it comes to real life. I can easily say that i have never seen or witnessed anything that would prove there is some higher spirit, god(s), boogeyman or whatever. Of course i have ever seen or witnessed that such thing wouldn't exist either. Give me a scientific proof about any supernatural creature and it is not supernatural any more, but natural within a limits of science. A creature that is a prisoner of Newton laws. Not much worth serving.
That is another reason i *believe* that science and religious faiths are wrestling on a different arenas. Science will never be able to explain or overcome on peoples will to believe in any greater spirits, and religions will never be able to beat any hard scientific facts.

There were times when earth was flat because the big book said so. Came a day when it wasn't any more and suddenly Gods were in trouble. Well not Gods but people who had been swearing this belief as a fact. Nowadays those Gods have been driven very far - beneath the big bang. Not much of a place for any almighty God i think. Maybe they finally are there? Who knows, not even scientific theories of today.
- This is true of course if we thing that such thing as religious faith is ok enough to explain rationalist events. Why should it do so as it is doomed to lose? At least this far this has always been the case. No matter what anyone believes.

Sometimes people get extreme and start taking old books too seriously or literally or they think that they really know what Gods are about:
Look at those who stone women to death for cheating. Or those who claim that earth is 10000 years old. Or Jim Jones? Or etc etc around the world, regardless of their religion. We shouldn't ridicule their faith but at the moment they start to spread whatever they think is a literal truth from God we should be very very curious.

I rather see religion as a happy personal thing. I have no religion, but maybe i am short of some genes
There is a person that is surely closest to me. Even thought i'm agnostic and she's religious and strong in her faith. She's nominally Lutherian but truly she believes in the old Nordic Gods, elves and those dudes. Maybe even potbellied pig. I never asked what or why, because here we don't really ask about anyones religious beliefs. Not my business, unless tries to make me believe these same fairies too. One day i realized that in her faith there's nothing religious really. It is rather believing in certain values that some of those old almost forgotten goddesses represent: love, faith, grace and whatever. She seems to be happy in her life. I cannot say she's wrong or right and i do not even care such attributes. They are almost the same values that most major religions today share.

Originally Posted by northpaw

There's an interesting question under the surface here, and that is whether all beliefs should be viewed/treated equally. It may promote harmony on SRP to do so, and if that is the goal, I completely understand (I really do), but I also suspect that privately most of us would answer in the negative.

For example, if one person says he believes there are no deities, while the second person says he believes in a strict understanding of the God of Abraham, while the third person says he believes in multiple pagan gods, it's expected that (as gentlemen) they are to show mutual respect to each other.

It's not about ridiculing beliefs. My own personal beliefs are part Catholic, part pagan, part shinto and part just me. To me it makes sense, even though it might seem weird or even bizarre to you or anyone else.

So I don't think people should be judged by their religious opinion, so to speak. However, nothing in my beliefs contradicts what science tells me. I put value in the bible as a spiritual document and as a document with analogies, parables etc.

Belief is fine as long as it does not contradict our observations. If it does, then that must mean belief is wrong, or at least misunderstood. The belief that the earth is 10K years old is in direct contradiction with everything we know, with all the science that correlates with everything we can observe, and insisting that it is still correct despite knowing all those things...

Faith = The whole hearted belief that something that can not be seen, touched, smelled, heard, nor tasted or in any other way be proven... Absolutely positively without a doubt still exsists...

If you use that same definition on anything else other than some form of Deity you would be considered insane....

You cannot ever argue Faith, you either have it or you don't, there never can be proof, or it wouldn't be called Faith


Ummmm BTW which "God" created all this??? I mean there are quite a few still out there

@richmondesi:
You seem to have a problem with calling opinions stupid.
I read recently that there are still a small group of people who believe the flat eath myths. Does that belief count as stupid, or do we also need to value it and respect it because God might have given us the illusion of a round earth, even though it is really flat, and it is not unreasonable to believe something that virtually everyone can verify for themselves by e.g watching a boat sail past the horizon?