Thread: UA for Public Assistance?

Originally Posted by Str8Edge

I do apologize for my tone. My goal was not to upset anyone. This subject enrages because I see it happening everyday. I even work with people who don't want the hours cause they will lose their wellfare. If you are willing and able to work then work. I've tried all kinds of funding and all I can get is $1,500 dollars a year. Again I apologize and never intended to be "that guy".

No worries -- probably not so much the tone as some of the specifics. Basically, state your case and avoid calling people morons for arguing in favor of the opposition. Civil debate is perfectly fine but sometimes these threads get a bit heated over political and religious topics which is what we want to avoid.

I've seen anecdotal evidence myself having worked retail (Publix) in a low-income area of town. We had lots of people getting assistance and while some of them were surely taking advantage of it, I also saw people who came in and asked for applications, some of which even got temporary work. If they have data taken from across the state showing the percentage of people abusing the system, it'd be easier to to make a case. Like HNSB noted, we might just wind up paying more in tax dollars now to fund random drug screenings.

Originally Posted by Glenn24

I don't know how much people on walfare in your contry get, but up here in Canada there's no way it could pay for drugs. And I'd be very surprised a drug pusher would accept a bunch of complicated benefit cards when he can get easy cash simpler & easier from any other addict.

Be very surprised, drug dealers do accept welfare benefits, I'm not sure it a 1:1 trade off but I know it is fairly common place. While in school we had David Simon (wrote "the corner" and created the HBO hits "the corner" and "the wire") come and give a guest lecture he studied the drug problem in Baltimore for a year living with addicts and what he had to say was mind blowing. And even if your not worried about trading welfare cards for drugs it was only last year when some politician finally thought it might be a good idea to put an end to welfare benefit cards being use to withdraw money at casino ATMs, I can't say I remember which state this was in but I'm sure if you wanna look it up you can. Now there are plenty of people who do need welfare benefits, but if you are in need I think you can get over the embarrassment of taking a piss test, many private and public jobs require the same from you, I don't see the difference.

Originally Posted by thehekler

Be very surprised, drug dealers do accept welfare benefits, I'm not sure it a 1:1 trade off but I know it is fairly common place. While in school we had David Simon (wrote "the corner" and created the HBO hits "the corner" and "the wire") come and give a guest lecture he studied the drug problem in Baltimore for a year living with addicts and what he had to say was mind blowing. And even if your not worried about trading welfare cards for drugs it was only last year when some politician finally thought it might be a good idea to put an end to welfare benefit cards being use to withdraw money at casino ATMs, I can't say I remember which state this was in but I'm sure if you wanna look it up you can. Now there are plenty of people who do need welfare benefits, but if you are in need I think you can get over the embarrassment of taking a piss test, many private and public jobs require the same from you, I don't see the difference.

Thanks for puting light on this. I'm completely with you for the piss test, I've done 2 for jobs so far & I never felt embarassed or insulted doing it.

Originally Posted by gugi

I fully support this, but only as long as random drug and alcohol tests are required for everybody else who is getting paycheck from the taxpayers. Including veterans, judges, governors....
If there'll be getting rid of the crackheads and drunkards the best place to start is from those who can do most damage, i.e. the ones with power.

Federal Civilian Employees seem to have major issues with random drug testing. For GIs on the other hand, since the mid to late 80's it's become as much a part of military life as spit shined boots. Upon return from a rotation in Saudi Arabia, me and everyone who deployed in the squadron coincidentally came up for a "random" drug screening. As I waited in line to fill my cup, I said to myself, "I'll be damned if this isn't the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I couldn't even get 3.2 beer in Saudi where the hell and how the hell would I purchase and use illegal drugs?" Despite such occassional buffoonery I never had an issue with it when I was in the military and in fact still don't as a civilian. Makes complete sense to me that if peoples lives are in your hands, you need to be drug free. I'd be four square behind quarterly mandatory UA testing for all elected officials. Wouldn't those results be interesting. Bottom line: If you're not doing drugs it's little more than a petty annoyance, no worries. The only thing they'll find in my urine is a gastly quantity of nicotine and last nights beers 2-4 beers at most.

"If you're not doing drugs it's little more than a petty annoyance, no worries. "

Maybe you need to read the Constitution again. For those of us who kind of like that whole Fourth amendment thing, it's a lot more than a petty annoyance. Drug tests are the most invasive kind of search: the government is checking what is INSIDE your body. While military personnel regularly have their constitutional rights waived, civilians are at least nominally supposed to have those rights protected.

Would you like it if the police came to your house every day and went through your things? If every US government employee had the right to listen to all of your phone calls, read all your emails, and put cameras in your bedroom?

Basically, your argument of "if you're doing nothing wrong there's nothing to hide" boils down to "the Bill of Rights is only a shield for criminals." I don't buy that logic, and I imagine if you thought about it, you wouldn't either.

As for the whole drug addiction aspect...whatever happened to "There but for the grace of God go I"?

Originally Posted by JimR

For those of us who kind of like that whole Fourth amendment thing, it's a lot more than a petty annoyance.

I agree, but I guess the question is whether it's worth willingly giving up some privacy for the benefit of public assistance. As long as one must be willing in order to receive benefits, I don't personally see a constitutional issue, but I'm just an armchair observer. The courts know better I guess

Outside of that, I don't like that drug testing has to even be considered as a solution

I enjoy the 4th amendment but between police road blocks and the TSA its pretty much gone. Plus, most folks these days have to pee in a cup to get a job. I want the people who get my tax money to pee in a cup, too.

Drug testing... Hmmm...
I think legalizing recreational drugs has a larger
potential for social good than this move. The levels
of crime stemming from and directly associated with
the war on drugs boggles the mind.

I do not approve of recreational drugs any more than I
approve of tobacco. And yes I was once a happy pipe smoker.
Having said that the current laws are causing much greater social
harm than they are resolving.

I might also add that current social programs are not well audited.
Agencies work hard to make it difficult to correlate all the largess
society bestows on the needy. For example those that qualify
for below market rate housing do not report the below market rate
delta as income and the landlord does not report this "hidden payment".
Child services are not honestly rolled into the income of a family tax
payer. With the net sum of all these services some but not all of
the needy live well above the level of a working stiff working two
jobs and breaking his back.

The governor of Florida is trying but ... I fear the net result will
be to fill prisons and push many more members of society out
of society for simply failing to pass a drug test.

This makes me so mad that ....
it is time for a scotch as soon as I know I do not have to drive tonight.
Perhaps I will have a fine cup of coffee or tea ... who knows.

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Drug testing... Hmmm...
I think legalizing recreational drugs has a larger
potential for social good than this move. The levels
of crime stemming from and directly associated with
the war on drugs boggles the mind.

I do not approve of recreational drugs any more than I
approve of tobacco. And yes I was once a happy pipe smoker.
Having said that the current laws are causing much greater social
harm than they are resolving.

I might also add that current social programs are not well audited.
Agencies work hard to make it difficult to correlate all the largess
society bestows on the needy. For example those that qualify
for below market rate housing do not report the below market rate
delta as income and the landlord does not report this "hidden payment".
Child services are not honestly rolled into the income of a family tax
payer. With the net sum of all these services some but not all of
the needy live well above the level of a working stiff working two
jobs and breaking his back.

The governor of Florida is trying but ... I fear the net result will
be to fill prisons and push many more members of society out
of society for simply failing to pass a drug test.

This makes me so mad that ....
it is time for a scotch as soon as I know I do not have to drive tonight.
Perhaps I will have a fine cup of coffee or tea ... who knows.

I wish there was an emoticon for standing up and applauding.

Originally Posted by bharner

Here in VA you can get from $18-$115 a month. Back when I used to partake of the green stuff I could pick up 1/8thoz of it for 5-20 depending on quality and what kind of quantities it was bought in. If one was to buy an oz of the cheap to mid grade stuff it could usually be had for 50-70 and that will last most people a little while. Meth can be had for about the same price and the people that use meth aren't usually too interested in food... Not to mention that down here you get a debit card and just punch in a PIN number to use it so anyone can have access to it and what you can buy is pretty open (no booze, tobacco, meds, or stuff prepared in store)

Except that those that qualify for the $18-$115 a month may also qualify for
a much longer list of pay outs. Folk that know how to work social services
can build an astounding list. Single men ... not so long, mothers and children
oh my. Each of city, county, state, federal has numerous service groups...

Consider coyote hunting years ago. As pests each county had a bounty,
one county paid for the left ear, another for the nose. Mink farmers
would buy the meat, the fur pelt would be bought by someone else. Those of
us that had a reason to be out in the desert in the winter could
knock a couple down toss them in the back of the pickup to freeze solid
on the way home. Depending on the quality of the pelt the "skinner"
would buy them out of the back of the truck and pay cash. He would do all
the hard work of skinning and butchering and also collect the bounty(s).
The sum of all these pieces made for a tidy sum...