Thread: British Law?

Originally Posted by MickR

I think a large degree of violent attacks actually go unreported in our countries with strict weapons controls, and by and large those very same countries like to report every single weapon crime commited in countries such as the US with less restrictions.
Several days ago, it was reported here how an 18 year old single mum shot and killed one of two men breaking into her home. She was on the 'phone to emergancy services at the time of the incident, scared to death, and the media here were more focussed on trying (unsucessfully I think) to make out like she was getting away with murder, as no charges were going to be laid on her. Indeed the charge of murder was laid, but it was laid squarely on the surviving house breaker, and rightly so in my opinion.
Just today it was reported how a man in this country has finally, after an entire year, been informed that he won't be formally charged by the police for stabbing a man who broke into his home with intent to do serious harm. I can tell you which sort of laws I would rather have, and it wouldn't have a damn thing to do with the stress of wondering if I am going to end up in jail for protecting myself from a criminal.

It just wouldn't do for people with few rights of self protection to know that the criminals really do have the upper hand.


Mick

I read that story, here in the US of course, and in a German online paper. The Germans (Der Spiegel) started off on their usual "ach, zees crazy Amerikaners" slant, but as the details emerged, they were not able to introduce enough criticism into it, and yanked the story after only one day! It seemed as though they were loath to report an incident in which the use of deadly force was entirely justified, and probably saved her life and that of her children.

This incident occurred in a trailer park, and the young woman's husband had recently died. The day after his death, some crazy meth-head who also lived in the park tried to get a "date" with her, but she turned him away. On the evening of her husband's funeral, he tried again, she told him to leave and he started trying to force entry into her trailer. She got on the phone with emergency services, it took them 20 mins. to get a cop out there, meanwhile the guy is getting madder and madder, finally breaks down the door and advances on her with a hunting knife in hand. She blasts him with the shotgun, he's dead. This all going on while she's on the phone with the emergency dispatcher. The "sensational" part of the story was that at some point she asked the dispatcher what she should do, and the dispatcher told her to do whatever is necessary to protect her herself and the kids... Good job all around if you ask me!

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but given the history of Europe back to the turn of the last century, I question why some are calling Europe more civilized than the U.S. An armed and critical populace makes it more difficult for despots to take power and kill en mass.

Originally Posted by markdfhr

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but given the history of Europe back to the turn of the last century, I question why some are calling Europe more civilized than the U.S. An armed and critical populace makes it more difficult for despots to take power and kill en mass.

You surely missed my parade, but that is a good question. I do not know if there could be one and only answer.
It is surely true that in Europe we have very bloody history. We've had maybe hundreds of civil wars and conflicts between ethnic groups. The civil war in my country was relatively more bloodier than yours. Like it was in many different conflicts in our continent. Then we had two major campaigns as well although you were there too.
What makes it special that most 'major' violence has always happened between one ore more organized groups trying to get rid of one or more on the other side, be it civil wars, ethnic cleanings or world war. There have been reasons or not for these conflicts, but when the time has come to take your gun and start shooting those on the other side, we have been really good in it.
When the conflicts have ended, such organized violence has ended also. In some countries more than others, but relatively in times of peace, in everyday life, people really do not need to walk around armed, just to defend themselves. Would be naive to say that crimes do not happen, but until these days it has been really rare to get robbed by someone using gun. Times are getting worse, but until these days even bad guys do not use or threaten with guns. Guns and weapons are for hunting and war; not to attack or defense against any human being. Even many cops here do not carry guns and it is illegal for even a cop to carry knife or gun when off duty. Even in Switzerland, where people have attack rifles in their home, they do not walk around armed. Also using gun against robbery is almost unknown, as people know those robbers are not armed either. And maybe it is the same here.
Of course this wasn't the answer to your question if we are more or less civilized than you and such question could never be answered. Maybe it is just attitude that in society no people should be afraid for they life. Until these days even those 'bad guys' have respected this too. We have no better or worse than you there, just different.

Originally Posted by markdfhr

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but given the history of Europe back to the turn of the last century, I question why some are calling Europe more civilized than the U.S. An armed and critical populace makes it more difficult for despots to take power and kill en mass.

I think Sailor above explains it pretty well. Europe does have an extremely violent history in terms of organized conflict (wars), and interpersonal combat (in France, Spain, Germany, it was pretty easy to get into duels well into the 20th C - Germany did not officially outlaw duels until 1917!!

However, between WW I, the Weimar Republic, the Spanish Wars, the Nazi-terror, WW II, The Cold War, left-wing terrorism, and ever-increasing weapons bans, I think we've seen the advent of a more pacifistic society, at least in theory, in which law-abiding citizens are generally more adverse to violence, especially armed violence, than here in the US, where most of my neighbors, good people, would not think twice about shooting an intruder in their home or going to the grocery store with a gun in their pocket. Whether the development in Europe is a good thing or not remains to be seen, but like Sailor says, it's definitely a very different attitude. I kind of like the Swiss model, where almost every citizen has a rifle in their home, and is ready to defend their country's independence - truly a well-regulated militia!

Originally Posted by HamburgO

On the other hand, a country such as South Africa has fairly strict firearms control and one of the highest murder rates in the world, I believe higher than the US. In spite of the laws there, illegal weapons are readily available on the street, and the criminal element seems to be quite violent.

I think it would be safe to say that a country like South Africa (and quite a few others on that continent) is really just a place where power mongering is the be all and end all. The only interest there is getting more drugs, money, guns or any and all of those things to get more of those things. Maybe not fair to use as an example with the US where a relatively minor amount of people have that same focus...And usually the ones creating the crime in the first place ...


Mick

The problem with making it hard for regular law abiding joes to get and legally defending themselves with firearms and knives is that no matter where they are it will be fairly easy for bad people to illegal weapons. For example, I live in the Midwest and even though I can go die for people rights, gain elected office, and am legally an adult at 19 I cannot but a handgun. But even being from a town of 30,000 I can go down the street and buy a black-market illegal glock for $300. All this literally 30 minutes away for the state capital, which happens to be the 3rd most violent city in America. Just my.02

Slightly off topic, with regard to the illegality of weapons.
I own a number of Co2 powered rifles, most are heavily modified for hunting rabbit for which they are ideal being silent and recoil less, the only thing you hear when I fire my rifles is a muted click of the hammer hitting the valve, a very quiet phutt, (thanks to the silencer) and the crack of the pellet hitting it's target, I do all the mods myself and own a chronograph to read the muzzle energy so that I ensure my rifles do not exceed the 12Ft Lb legal limit, which is handy because after working on one rifle it was producing 21Ft Lbs, using .22 14.5 grain pellets, no big deal you might think, it's only an air rifle of sorts, if I had left the rifle in that condition and was caught by the police with it anywhere including my home the minimum sentence that a magistrate can pass under the law is five years, as it would be regarded as a firearm.
It's a ridiculous situation but that's England for you!

Originally Posted by HamburgO

I think Sailor above explains it pretty well. Europe does have an extremely violent history in terms of organized conflict (wars), and interpersonal combat (in France, Spain, Germany, it was pretty easy to get into duels well into the 20th C - Germany did not officially outlaw duels until 1917!!

However, between WW I, the Weimar Republic, the Spanish Wars, the Nazi-terror, WW II, The Cold War, left-wing terrorism, and ever-increasing weapons bans, I think we've seen the advent of a more pacifistic society, at least in theory, in which law-abiding citizens are generally more adverse to violence, especially armed violence, than here in the US, where most of my neighbors, good people, would not think twice about shooting an intruder in their home or going to the grocery store with a gun in their pocket. Whether the development in Europe is a good thing or not remains to be seen, but like Sailor says, it's definitely a very different attitude. I kind of like the Swiss model, where almost every citizen has a rifle in their home, and is ready to defend their country's independence - truly a well-regulated militia!

As you say, I think a lot of it has to do with history and perspective. It could certainly be argued that the tyranny and violence that is so much a part of European history may have been the direct result of the ruling class ensuring that the masses were defenseless and powerless (even if at times not all that compliant.) This certainly worked out in favor of the ruling class. Like the saying goes, in the land of the blind the man with one good eye is king. This was the exact environment that the founders of my country were willing to risk their lives to escape. Their new country began with the radical, and heretofore almost offensive notion that decent law abiding people should be free to manage their own affairs and live their lives with little or no government interference. More radical still was a commonly held notion amongst the founding fathers that an armed populace would foster an environment where the government feared (or at least would retain a healthy respect for) its citizens. Of course, the exact opposite was the reality in Europe at the time. Tyranical leaders ran rough shod over the common people who could offer little to no resistance. In lots of ways an armed citizenry was just another one of many checks and balances built into our system to ensure that the tryranny these people sought to escape would not simply re-invent itself in the new world.

Originally Posted by Devilpup

The problem with making it hard for regular law abiding joes to get and legally defending themselves with firearms and knives is that no matter where they are it will be fairly easy for bad people to illegal weapons. For example, I live in the Midwest and even though I can go die for people rights, gain elected office, and am legally an adult at 19 I cannot but a handgun. But even being from a town of 30,000 I can go down the street and buy a black-market illegal glock for $300. All this literally 30 minutes away for the state capital, which happens to be the 3rd most violent city in America. Just my.02

You have my sympathies. Your state's policies in that regard are among the most extreme in the nation, on a par with NY (City, even though the state may issues permits, NYC categorically denies the right to carry, except to LEO, etc.), and DC (which wanted to ban firearms sales entirely, but that was defeated in court last year). Like you say, picking up an illegal weapon is a piece of cake in any of those jurisdictions, but penalties for being caught are stiff: A former US Marine is currently on trial in NYC because he didn't check the gun laws well enough and carried his firearm, legally purchased in his home state, to NY. He got busted when he tried to voluntarily check it in with Empire State Building security. There's a chance that he actually might receive the mandatory sentence: Three and a half years jailtime!

It never ceases to amuse me how these restrictive laws are being propagated and enforced by fat-cat politicos such as Bloomberg and Daley, who of course have armed security up the wazoo for themselves and their families - but of course, they're simply a better class of people ;-)

Originally Posted by osdset

Slightly off topic, with regard to the illegality of weapons.
I own a number of Co2 powered rifles, most are heavily modified for hunting rabbit for which they are ideal being silent and recoil less, the only thing you hear when I fire my rifles is a muted click of the hammer hitting the valve, a very quiet phutt, (thanks to the silencer) and the crack of the pellet hitting it's target, I do all the mods myself and own a chronograph to read the muzzle energy so that I ensure my rifles do not exceed the 12Ft Lb legal limit, which is handy because after working on one rifle it was producing 21Ft Lbs, using .22 14.5 grain pellets, no big deal you might think, it's only an air rifle of sorts, if I had left the rifle in that condition and was caught by the police with it anywhere including my home the minimum sentence that a magistrate can pass under the law is five years, as it would be regarded as a firearm.
It's a ridiculous situation but that's England for you!

Wow! 21 ft. lbs. is considered excessive? What's the reasoning behind that? I don't believe that would make it a lethal weapon to anything much larger than a rabbit. A "real" .22 LR 38grain bullet at 1260 ft/s produces 134 ft.lbs., and would at best be considered marginally effective as an anti-personnel round.