Fathers' Rights in Child Custody and High Conflict Divorce

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I think I understand what you mean. That is one of the 2 big marriage mistakes that usually lie at the source of a divorce.
The other common mistake is that people go into marriage with the wrong expectations. That is why I think the traditional marriage vows are important, and why they are the way they are for a reason.

Love and cherish (e.g. sex will stay on the menu), in good times and bad (shit will happen), for richer and poorer (you may lose your job, or house, or whatever), in sickness and (one of you may need continuous care eventually) in health, till death (there is no plan B) do you part. Too many people go into marriage thinking that everything will be rainbows and flying unicorns for the rest of their life. The traditional vows are the way they are precisely because marriage can be challenging. Consequently, many times, one of the partners bails out as soon as they're having problems.

Anyway, sorry for going slightly off topic.

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All good points Bruno, and we could probably have an entire thread on marriage and relationships. I had a friend of mine get married recently and his mom spoke at the wedding. She's Dutch, so she didn't waste time on poetry and love stories, she gave practical advice. "Marriage is not a 50/50 arrangement. Both parties have to give 100%. If you think you can get by with 50/50, then go into business together instead because that's not how marriage works." It was the smartest thing I ever heard anyone ever say about marriage.

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Originally Posted by whavens

I too have been there. It was a long, expensive divorce. However, I was able to get custody of my children and raised them to be productive adults. My son is 28 and my daughter is 22, they were 9 and 3 when I got custody of them. I never recieved one penny of child support and had to raise them with the help of family and friends. Looking back I would not change making the decision to fight for them for any amount of money in the world. I adopted my son when he was 6 and got custody of him 3 years later. I dread thinking of the living hell his life would have become had I not adopted him and fought for him. Thanks for raising everyone's awareness.

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My story is similar, I won custody of my son and daughter at the ages of 3yrs and 18 months old, my wife committed adultery and walked out on me &the children, I had no family or close friends to help unfortunately, and looking after them was the toughest thing I have ever had to do, but I had no choice it was me or the care system, I gave up work and any semblance of financial security for 16 years, but I don't regret a day, and I would do it all over again, my kids have grown into two fine responsible adults and now have children of their own.

The one thing this experience did do was to put me off marriage for life, I am in a relationship now with someone else and have been for 17 years, but I won't marry her, it's not her fault but some scars won't heal.

I watched a brother-in-law and sister-in-law go through one of the nastiest divorces I've ever heard of. She went completely paranoid and had me search the house for bugs. The custody arrangement was one of the strangest I've ever heard of.

Each parent (3 kids) had the kids for 3.5 days a week. The strange part is the kids DID NOT move. The parents each occupied the house for half the week. They did this for several months while they fought in court.

After the divorce I saw her use the kids as a club on him for years. She would damage the kids to try to hurt him. She would deny him permission to get the kids medical care.

There is a law office advertising here in Dallas as a divorce specialist. One thing they say is to clean out your Facebook. Apparently a tactic is to go there looking for signs of infidelity.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

I watched a brother-in-law and sister-in-law go through one of the nastiest divorces I've ever heard of. She went completely paranoid and had me search the house for bugs.

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Not surprising, considering how some people behave during divorce. As I said before, my ex tried to provoke me into a fight with a camera hidden to record it.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

The custody arrangement was one of the strangest I've ever heard of.

Each parent (3 kids) had the kids for 3.5 days a week. The strange part is the kids DID NOT move. The parents each occupied the house for half the week. They did this for several months while they fought in court.

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Believe it or not, that's not such an uncommon arrangement during the early weeks and months of seperation, and it's probably less stressful for the kids (if the parents aren't crazy, vindictive, and vengeful towards one another, that is).

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

After the divorce I saw her use the kids as a club on him for years. She would damage the kids to try to hurt him. She would deny him permission to get the kids medical care.

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This is the most frustrating thing to see. In Washington, parents are required to take a training course on shared parenting before the judge will sign off on the divorce/custody agreement. I'm sure it doesn't stop the really crazy people treating their kids like a football, but I think it does make most parents a lot more aware of the stress that the children face, and how much it can be reduced if the parents behave like adults.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

There is a law office advertising here in Dallas as a divorce specialist. One thing they say is to clean out your Facebook. Apparently a tactic is to go there looking for signs of infidelity.

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"Cleaning out your facebook" is something I never had to worry about. Unlike my ex, who boasted about her drug use and sexual exploits on hers, mine has always been pretty tame. I've always kept her blocked anyway, so I only heard about it second hand. Either way, the FB didn't even enter into the picture during the divorce. That sort of crap is just drama, and the judge never likes to hear about "baby-mama-drama". He likes facts presented calmly. That's what the lawyer is for. I just kept my mouth shut and said exactly what my lawyer told me to say, and no more.

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Originally Posted by Crotalus

Each parent (3 kids) had the kids for 3.5 days a week. The strange part is the kids DID NOT move. The parents each occupied the house for half the week. They did this for several months while they fought in court.

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In a way I can see where the court was coming from, let the kids have some stability in terms of where they live, and let the adults do the moving, having said that, it's a weird set up.

They is a quote that I like to say to friends when they complain about their relationship (obviously when the situation is not important and subject to joking):
"men marry women hoping they won't change, women marry men hoping they will change",
or equivalently:
"men marry women for who they are, women marry men for who they could be".

In your experience, is this a (bad) men joke, or is there a piece of truth (that marriage expectancy are gender different) ??

Also, from those who divorced, are in the process of doing so, or went through a very hard (conflicting) time with their partners:

what topics would you advise a soon-to-be-engaged or soon-to-be-married couple to seriously discuss ??

(for example, career vs family.... etc.)

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Originally Posted by christophe

Also, from those who divorced, are in the process of doing so, or went through a very hard (conflicting) time with their partners:

what topics would you advise a soon-to-be-engaged or soon-to-be-married couple to seriously discuss ??

(for example, career vs family.... etc.)

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I would recommend they discuss everything. Things that seem inconsequential can become huge stumbling blocks later. But definitely children/career, finances,
anything you can think of that could potentially be a problem should be discussed first.

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Originally Posted by christophe

...
"men marry women hoping they won't change, women marry men hoping they will change",
or equivalently:
"men marry women for who they are, women marry men for who they could be".

In your experience, is this a (bad) men joke, or is there a piece of truth (that marriage expectancy are gender different) ??

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There is a lot of truth to this joke, though it doesn't really give the whole picture. There are definitely women who get married with the expectation that she will "whip him onto shape", but these tend to be women of the high maintenance type, with a severe lack of maturity. There are a lot of spoiled "daddy's girls" out there who have a giant sense of entitlement. You can spot them early on by their expectations as the the carat weight of the engagement ring.

But this is not all women by a long shot. There are a lot of good women out there in the world. They're the ones who don't expect to have a husband take care of them. They're the ones who have jobs and savings accounts (like you should have) instead of credit card debt.

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Originally Posted by whavens

I would recommend they discuss everything. Things that seem inconsequential can become huge stumbling blocks later. But definitely children/career, finances,
anything you can think of that could potentially be a problem should be discussed first.

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Yes, discuss everything. No detail is too insignificant.

But I would also add that it's important not to just listen to your future partner's answers, you have to watch her behavior. If she says that having a savings account is important, watch her and see if she acts that way. Does she have a savings account? When she spends your money or shared assets, does she do so carefully and conscientiously? Does she take her work seriously or does she make partying her priority? Does she apologize if she treats you badly? This one is very important. If she is incapable of admitting that she's wrong and apologizing for it, then the marriage will fail (if you're lucky). How did her last long term relationship end? Does she blame it all on her ex or does she accept some of the responsibility?

If a woman is reading this, these go both ways. They apply to men as well.