Thread: Ultimate Test of Civility ~ 2nd Amendment

Just because criminals can obtain guns outside of the law doesn't mean that everyone should have a shooting implement designed for killing people. There are too many idiots out there.

Lots of good points. Here are a few more:

Drugs are illegal and yet they are everywhere. Probably more than some of you may realize. You wipe out one source and another one pops up. Same will happen with guns. The price/value of guns will go up so high that criminals will find a way to get one/sell them, period. Not to mention there are millions of them unaccounted for right now. How will you get all of them back?

As far as relaying on bystanders to save your butt when its getting kicked, I would not count on it. Some will, but most will not. I have seen videos of shoot outs and to my disbelief most people stand there shocked and don't do anything, not even try and save there own skin. Or they go into black and are useless, same will happen when they see similar violence (knife/blunt object attack)

As far as someone calling a LEO to bail you out thats fine if you live in the city. But even then it might take 3 minutes. I am a LEO for a County. My back up is usually 10 minutes or more away. Possibly a little less, but that depends on weather/road conditions/staffing level. So if my backup is that far away, so is a citizens. Of course you could get lucky and one could be less than a minute
away. But when you are getting kicked in the head you don't have a minute. I don't like to rely on luck either. Most of our Country is rural with small law enforcement agencies. I am not saying your local law enforcement will not be able to help you, but why place all your eggs in one basket and assume they can get to you before its to late.

I have come across several victims that should be dead today but got lucky. And I know of some that are dead today because they didn't have a chance to fight back. Some are/were women, that could not have overpowered their attacker period......they would have needed a gun!

I recommend everyone that is legally able to and morally willing to own/use a weapon do so. Learn how/when to use it and be prepared. If you are not willing to use it, then don't own it. Because then you do risk it being used against you.

I carry a weapon with me 99% of the time and try to get more of my fellow LEO's to also. I do it for myself, my family and so that I don't have to standby and let harm come to someone else either. Most coppers I know do not. Probably because its a pain in the butt sometimes. But they have a choice to carry or not to carry. I want to see citizens have that choice also. Due to our current Governor being re-elected that will probably not happen for a while.

Obviously we cannot hand out guns like candy. But you will find that most people that want to CCW are responsible adults that take the responsibility seriously. They educate themselves and pay for good training even when it is not required. You will always have your fair share of idiots, but you cannot punish the group for a few morons. Many times when a city/state allows CCW for the first time the anti crowd cries that there will be blood baths in the street and shoot outs will be a daily occurrence. Yet this never happens. Why is this?

Oh and how about we actually lock-up or the scum that use a gun in a crime. I am still in shock when I run a criminal history on some of these people and they are on the street less than 10 years after being convicted of Homicide! Armed Robbery, Felon in possession of a firearm, Homicide, Attempted Homicide, these are all things that people do a little time for and are back out. The American people as a whole need to get a little sick of this and hold their elected officials accountable for allowing predators like this to be among us.

I agree that the one or two guns your not using for SD should be secured in some way. I see more than I like to taken in burglaries. I wont say a gun safe should be required, but it is a good idea. This would help cut down on illegal guns.

Good point guys, I was typing my post when several of you posted so I didn't mean to repeat about certain things.

This goes hand in hand with the discussion so I thought I would post it. I don't agree with everything Grossman has to say (in his books) but he is right on with a lot of it. As far as what is below I would have to say these are some very true words.

If you are at all interested in taking care of yourself and your family then I recommend you pick up his books and give them a read. Very educational and informative. Even if you are not I recommend them. It will help you understand what happens to your body/mind when you are fighting for your life. Might help you understand why "that" police officer/armed citizen did what they did. We (public) are so "educated" by movies and TV that we misjudge peoples actions in these types of situations. If nothing else it will give you a deeper respect and appreciation for our soldiers, past/present/future.

Looks like its too long, I will have to make two posts.




On Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves

By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, U.S. Army (Ret.) www.killology.com



One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind,

gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by

accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per

100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000

per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are

not inclined to hurt one another.



Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent

crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time

record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million

Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent

crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year.

Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat

offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably

less than two million.



Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the

situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but

violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens

are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other,

except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.



I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the

pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday

it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive

without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other

warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they

protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they

need warriors to protect them from the predators.



"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the

wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are

wolves out there that will feed on the flock without mercy? You

better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are

capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is

not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.



"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live

to protect the flock and confront the wolf."...



If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy

productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence

and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an

aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for

violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you

have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's

path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the

universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.



Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep,

wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, which

is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is

evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen,

which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire

alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.



But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police

officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times

more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence

than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of

violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm

their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.



The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like

the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The

difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will

not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the

lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot

work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a

republic such as ours.



Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder

that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't

tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at

the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16.

The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs,

spray paint himself white, and go,

"Baa."



Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock tries desperately to

hide behind one lonely sheepdog.



The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough

high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would

not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not

bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school

was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms

and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging,

sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about

their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.



Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded

hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt

differently about their law enforcement officers and military

personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?



Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a

sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a

sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on

the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump

in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the

young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are

a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns

when needed right along with the young ones.



Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep

pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that

day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep,

that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one

of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I

wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have

made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior

and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be

there. You want to be able to make a difference.



There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior,

but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he

is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98

percent of the population.



There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals

convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious,

predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law

enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically

targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior

and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in

Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to

protect itself.



Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be

genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that

most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to

say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was

honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you

recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on

his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the

hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that

had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the

words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the

other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a

transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business

people and parents. -- From sheep to sheepdogs and together they

fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on

the ground.



"Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself

after that?"



"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible

evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke



Here is the point I like to emphasize; especially to the thousands

of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the

sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way,

and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a

critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It

is a conscious, moral decision.



If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay,

but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you

and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog

there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but

the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you

will never have rest, safety, trust, or love. But if you want to be

a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a

conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and

prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the

wolf comes knocking at the door.



For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are

well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or

inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.

Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very

good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying.

You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of

worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.



I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the

break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in

church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my

gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he

told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft.

Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged

individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down

fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved

every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son

was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body

and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you

have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"



Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer

was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and

would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be

enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that

the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire

extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not

work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can

happen and that there must be safeguards against them.



Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too

often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the

sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it

would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and

killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were

unprepared for that day?"



It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically

destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is

counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness

and horror when the wolf shows up.



Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth

when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun,

you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is

not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you

do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your

fear, helplessness, and horror at your moment of truth.



Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less," his superb

post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone

trying to come to terms with our current world situation:

"...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect.

For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't

so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more

unsettling."



Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely

in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the

truth on some level.



And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of

his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.



If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and

you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep,

pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on"

24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are

authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just

take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa."



This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no

dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a

matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject,

head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate

warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most

of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in

America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep

took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors,

and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The

degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and

denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will

survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth.

Originally Posted by Sec162

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too

often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the

sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it

would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and

killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were

unprepared for that day?"

This often crosses my mind when I enter certain places in certain states where a civilian (and technically an off duty LEO) is not supposed to carry, often these are the places where many crimes can happen. It is a constant question of which option I could live with.

I make sure my loved ones carry

Couldn't agree with you more, JL. I don't go anywhere without my friend Gaston.