Thread: Any doctors here?

Originally Posted by commiecat

The significance is that it separates people who probably have similar achievements in a certain field. Graduate programs are competitive and the schools can only accept so many students per semester, so once you're dealing with a field of applicants who are all academically qualified to enter the master's program, the school will then look at things that are more indicative of a person's character as a member of the school and community. It's similar to how the job hiring process can be here when you have multiple applicants qualified for one open position.

That 'could' be true if it wasn't expected. If n hours of volunteer work becomes just an item for schools to tick off a list, then students will do it just because it is expected. It will no longer say anything about their character. If you the school said '200 hours on a treadmill' they'd do it just the same, for the same motivation.

EDIT: if the volunteer work is relevant to the field (like mike explained) then I agree that it is indicative and valudable

Originally Posted by roughkype

...worked for a couple of years as a test editor on the MCAT.

...and it was SO FUN not to have any premeds. ...In the majors/premed course, I was tortured by variations of "What's on the test?" Premeds were the worst. Most of them had forgotten what curiosity was, and a grade was their goal, not the knowledge.

In my opinion, the very best thing that you can do for your MCAT is to quit studying for it at least three days before the actual testing date, chill out, sleep well, then go into the test calm and well-rested and trust your first answer every time.

I've been on the exam preparation side as well, but for professional board exams. The same questions come up about what's on the test. Given the exam development timeline, everything on the test is at a minimum three years old anyway. It's pointless to want to know specific content for something like that. Better to be a generalist and flexible when it comes to knowledge.

That's just solid advice RoughK.

All the premed classes were increased exercises in stress response with everyone trying to make the cut rather than learning anything. I remember one miserable semester where I tanked Org Chem, Physics and Animal Biology but got an A+ in Microanatomy. My advisor could not understand that ratio. I explained that in the Microanatomy course we "got to play with an electron microscope and that made it both fun and interesting and no premeds were running around trying to screw up everyone else's lab results to improve their curve." It's no amazing thing to see where ethics and morality go when a grade is on the line. I abandoned hope for entry to med school after that experience. Now look at me years later, I be a doc. Go figure.

+1 to the advice about three days before the test. Almost to a word, that statement is something I've repeated to many an exam taker. The only item I would add is "Read something for enjoyment for a change. Some pulp novel of no educational significance so you don't lose the joy of reading for its own sake." And a cup of coffee. A little caffeine will help, a little, for the first couple hours, after that, you're on your own.

When you talk top of the line schools everyone who applies has fantastic grades and does super in the tests. So, how do you decide who to accept? Well, first if your daddy can give a big donation you are assured acceptance but if he can't then they look for the "well rounded student" meaning the volunteer work maybe being on the school paper staff, being class president or being on the school sports team. Things like that.

Thanks to all who answered!! Lots of great stuff here. jhenry, I want to be a doc more than anything. I've had to traverse miles of bullshit just to get through premed stuff (like horrible advisors telling me to give up because of my screw up in Organic chemistry, taking classes that I really didnt enjoy at all just because they were requirements) and I'm very well aware of the long road ahead in medical school and beyond. As for what schools I want to go to, I have a a handful in mind. I'll be retaking Organic again in Fall, I despise Organic chemistry with a passion and I"ll be the first to admit my failures. Mike Blue, the writing/verbal on the MCAT is the only section I truly enjoy. I LOVE reading and writing, i get excited for that part haha. In all honesty, I LOVE classes that involved the human body. Anatomy, physiology, cell bio, even biochemistry, I loved all those classes. I couldn't stand the physics and chemistry and all the other stuff they require us to take, especially knowing that I had to do well in them inspite of me not liking them, which is why premeds are like that. We can't take a chance to breathe and absorb the material, its always go, go, go and get A's, its easy to lose sight of what we're learning and why. I have one more semester of classes in Fall, and I take my MCAT September 1. My GPA, inspite of my mistakes, is not bad, but I really feel like a strong MCAT, especially coupled with all my other stuff, is what will get me in. As for taking a couple days off before the test, I fully plan to do that, lots of people have been telling me to take a whole week off.

I'm not a doctor, and I don't play one on TV, but I do work for one of the big test prep companies. Having seen things from the inside, I can say that the test prep companies spend a lot of time and money studying the tests, developing techniques to beat them, creating practice problems and exams, and teaching their instructors how to teach the material. I definitely know that the classes can be expensive, but many guarantee improvements. I would suggest, at the very least, that you look into it.

PS - I was a physics major in college, and I TA'ed classes that premed kids took. One professor told me a story about a premed kid who asked why he had to take physics. The professor answered "So idiots can't be doctors." While I think that statement is a bit harsh, I think it's pretty undeniable that, in order to do physics, you must learn to think in a logical, orderly way, and you must learn how to problem solve systematically.

Originally Posted by ReardenSteel

From what I hear, med school like most graduate programs look at the whole picture, not just your test score. For instance, I have a friend who's daughter, 4.0 gpa, scored extremely high on the MCAT only to not be accepted into the med schools to which she applied. After a couple of years of trying, she gave up and got a business degree just to get on with her life. When it comes down to it, I think your gpa, community involvment, volunteer experiences, letters of recommendation, and how well you do on your interview, will speak volumes to being successful, more so than just a high test result. I am not a doctor, I just have experience playing the game.

I'm going out on a limb and say your daughter is not a single mom and she is also white. Truth about the school system is if you are a "minority" or a single mom you will have an easier time getting into a school and also getting grants that you will not have to pay back.
As far as med school I highly encourage you to go the PA route. better autonomy, and more control over the course of your carreer. Plus you dont have the innsurance bills of an MD. Also look at going for a DO degree. Same privilges as an MD but may be easier to get into a program.

Paul

animalwithin,

Glad to hear that you benefited from our suggestions.

A lot of the courses you took or are taking as an undergraduate may appear to be b. s., but there is a rationale for the seeming madness.

Take Organic Chemistry for example. It may seem like just another hoop to jump through at this point, but there is a logical reason for future physicians taking it. Organic chemistry helps one learn about drugs' chemical structures as well as DNA these days. I'm certain that will come in handy use for you as a future doc when you must assess the therapeutic properties of a drug you are about to prescribe for a patient.

The human body is also made up of numerous chemicals that co-exist in a harmonious balance with each other. When you are making your hospital rounds as a medical intern, resident and hopefully an attending physician one day, you'll be reading a patient's chart with the lab results of his/her blood test(s) that will provide you with that info. You'll need to know, for example, when a patient's K level is too low--which can cause heart failure if it persists for a lengthy period of time.

Another is Physics. Just remember that it will help you understand and assess things such as blood flow, blood pressure, etc. later on in med school and as a practicing physician.

As for the pressure of making good grades...Believe me, that's nothing compared to the pressure you'll face when a sick patient's very life depends on the decisions you'll have to make about their treatment. As the previous post advised, learn to relax destress. You'll live longer.

Hang in there chief. Keep us posted on your progress. You're going to be a great physician. We're all pulling for you.

Originally Posted by animalwithin

In all honesty, I LOVE classes that involved the human body. Anatomy, physiology, cell bio, even biochemistry, I loved all those classes. I couldn't stand the physics and chemistry and all the other stuff they require us to take, especially knowing that I had to do well in them inspite of me not liking them, which is why premeds are like that.

The thing is that unless you are able to understand simple things like say how two molecules bind together (physics/chemistry) you will never be particularly good at understanding such an incredibly complex system as the human body. Here's a question to consider - why do you think being a doctor would be more interesting than being a chemist, or historian, or lawyer, or teacher?

I don't have direct experience with med school, but I have a friend who took that route after completing his doctoral decree in a field that is 'hard core science'. He started as a farm boy, almost flunked out of mediocre college, but by the time he figured out what he wants to do with his life he was an excellent scientist, had spent hundreds of hours volunteering at the local hospital (to know what it's really like and whether it is what he wants to do) and the juvie (teaching troubled kids as well as providing a role model) and he ended up going to the top med school (after being accepted to all of the top tier).

At this point, it seems you fit the conventional profile of a pre-med student, so you could think what distinguishes you from the rest of your peers in the applications pile. An impressive MCAT score and/or GPA certainly draws attention, if you can do it, and is the standard approach which most of your competition will take too, but may be you have something else as well. You already had plenty of excellent suggestions esp. from Mike Blue and jhenry, how much you benefit from them depends largely on your maturity level.

Originally Posted by Str8Shooter

I'm going out on a limb and say your daughter is not a single mom and she is also white. Truth about the school system is if you are a "minority" or a single mom you will have an easier time getting into a school and also getting grants that you will not have to pay back.

I really wish I didn't have to read this in this thread...

Originally Posted by jhenry

animalwithin,

Glad to hear that you benefited from our suggestions.

A lot of the courses you took or are taking as an undergraduate may appear to be b. s., but there is a rationale for the seeming madness.

Take Organic Chemistry for example. It may seem like just another hoop to jump through at this point, but there is a logical reason for future physicians taking it. Organic chemistry helps one learn about drugs' chemical structures as well as DNA these days. I'm certain that will come in handy use for you as a future doc when you must assess the therapeutic properties of a drug you are about to prescribe for a patient.

The human body is also made up of numerous chemicals that co-exist in a harmonious balance with each other. When you are making your hospital rounds as a medical intern, resident and hopefully an attending physician one day, you'll be reading a patient's chart with the lab results of his/her blood test(s) that will provide you with that info. You'll need to know, for example, when a patient's K level is too low--which can cause heart failure if it persists for a lengthy period of time.

Another is Physics. Just remember that it will help you understand and assess things such as blood flow, blood pressure, etc. later on in med school and as a practicing physician.

As for the pressure of making good grades...Believe me, that's nothing compared to the pressure you'll face when a sick patient's very life depends on the decisions you'll have to make about their treatment. As the previous post advised, learn to relax destress. You'll live longer.

Hang in there chief. Keep us posted on your progress. You're going to be a great physician. We're all pulling for you.

jhenry, you're the best, you don't know how much your words mean me, thanks so much!! Concerning physics and all that, I know it has its value somewhere, hard to see it now, but I understand what you're saying. I just wish "pre-med" was more centered around biology rather than courses like chemistry and physics. When this is all said and done, one day in the coming years I'm going to start a thread on here entitled: "I got into med school!!!!"

For some reason the multi-quote thing ran these back to front, but there's a lot of good stuff in here.

Originally Posted by gugi

The thing is that unless you are able to understand simple things like say how two molecules bind together (physics/chemistry) you will never be particularly good at understanding such an incredibly complex system as the human body. Here's a question to consider - why do you think being a doctor would be more interesting than being a chemist, or historian, or lawyer, or teacher?

All those things are interesting. My wife would kill me if I thought about going to law school now.

There are three things that teachers should understand more clearly than any others about their profession. What does a learner Need to Know, what things are merely Good to Know and what things are Nice to Know? The ratio of those three items explains why so much time for both the teacher and learner are wasted and are the source of much frustration for both groups. As an educator, I ask the question why we don't spend all our time on Need to Know stuff and then expect all our learners to pass the test with 100% grades? As a student my first question is, "Okay Professor, if I can pass the test with a 70% score, what 30% don't I need to know so I won't waste precious study time on useless s***?" The Prof will say "it's all important." "But Professor, if I can miss 30% on this test, and Bill here theoretically can miss an entirely different 30% and Bob over here can miss another different 30% and we all still pass isn't 100% of what you're teaching pretty much useless?"

See what kind of trouble I can cause? I really love asking them this question because it does illustrate that they can't figure out what a student really Needs to Know.

Going into this whole process, I was frustrated by the lack of any apparent value to Inorganic Chemistry with regard to human chemical systems. Some of the rest, but especially, Organic Chemistry was the equivalent of the "flunk out class" designed to weed out the non hackers (Go watch the first minutes of Full Metal Jacket again, the doctrine is just the same but easier to understand and by God, R. L. Ermey is entertaining.) Biochemistry made a damn sight more sense to what docs eventually wind up doing.

Now, since I started smelting my own steel, there is a ton of stuff bubbling up from the basement of Inorganic Chem that is pretty useful. I admit to some chagrin over that. You never know when you might need something later when you believed it was completely useless at the time. Watch the first and last bits of Monty Python and the Holy Grail for the object lesson there. "You have to know these things to be King..."

But, some understanding of cosmology is necessary, philosophy is necessary and especially the study of human behavior (psych stuff) because you are going to deal with human beings and they are all different with different values and motivations that generate the majority of unpredictability in this business. Bio and Chem are fascinating by themselves but when you add in the Black Box called the human mind it becomes intriguingly chaotic. Most Necessary is to understand yourself. If you fail there, you will not be able to separate yourself from them (transference and countertransference, okay yah it's old stuff but surprisingly operative if you observe carefully).

...I don't have direct experience with med school, but I have a friend who took that route after completing his doctoral decree in a field that is 'hard core science'. He started as a farm boy, almost flunked out of mediocre college, but by the time he figured out what he wants to do with his life he was an excellent scientist, had spent hundreds of hours volunteering at the local hospital (to know what it's really like and whether it is what he wants to do) and the juvie (teaching troubled kids as well as providing a role model) and he ended up going to the top med school (after being accepted to all of the top tier).

Sounds like the story of my life. Figuring out what you want to be when you grow up is a good summation of the process of human development. If you cannot live out your dream, collected during adolescence, you will have a life of frustration. Now some of us wanted to fly jets, but were stuck with coke bottle glasses. Some dreams are impractical or unrealistic and we have to learn to adapt to what we can find fascinating. Keep some flexibility and remain persistent until you can achieve a reasonable level of satisfaction. Some of us simply had to take the hardest longest path to get there. We would not have been really ready otherwise. I'm convinced that happiness is illusory, but satisfaction can be something real.

Originally Posted by jhenry

...A lot of the courses you took or are taking as an undergraduate may appear to be b. s., but there is a rationale for the seeming madness.

Here is dangerous ground. Yes, the content can be useful for building up a base of knowledge. But, in operation it can be sorely abused, indeed reinforce the madness, the addiction to money and power. One of my graduate school classmates wrote a paper that made complete sense when she looked at the characteristics of professional educational programs (medicine, nursing etc.) in health care and proved the case that they were the same behaviors exhibited by ritualized child abusers and completely paid for by the victims. Think about that for a moment. There are news stories all the time now about how hazing is bad for society and yet all our professional schools engage in the very same processes hidden in the guise of training the very people who hold our lives in their hands. There should be no wonder that these stresses induce unwanted reactions in our providers.

Take Organic Chemistry for example. It may seem like just another hoop to jump through at this point, but there is a logical reason for future physicians taking it. Organic chemistry helps one learn about drugs' chemical structures as well as DNA these days. I'm certain that will come in handy use for you as a future doc when you must assess the therapeutic properties of a drug you are about to prescribe for a patient.

The human body is also made up of numerous chemicals that co-exist in a harmonious balance with each other. When you are making your hospital rounds as a medical intern, resident and hopefully an attending physician one day, you'll be reading a patient's chart with the lab results of his/her blood test(s) that will provide you with that info. You'll need to know, for example, when a patient's K level is too low--which can cause heart failure if it persists for a lengthy period of time.

These are true statements, however at this point, I don't analyze the chemistry as much as checking to see if the test result falls between the high and low values and thinking about what to do to counteract the abnormal. The thought processes operating now are not so far removed from a chef following a recipe. There just isn't enough time in the work day to consider everything and all the folks who depend on your decision want only that, a decision, so they can move on with their job, or recovery. But, when the problem's solutions are not obvious, problem solving skills require a good base from which to operate. In some ways you could function from the recipe alone, but strong analytical skills require information to work on. That makes the difference between the merely good and the very good.

...Another is Physics. Just remember that it will help you understand and assess things such as blood flow, blood pressure, etc. later on in med school and as a practicing physician.

LOL. And to figure out why the 30 year old driving the car with her mom in the right seat in a T-bone accident on the driver's side door came out of the accident without a scratch and her mom fractured her right hip.

...As for the pressure of making good grades...Believe me, that's nothing compared to the pressure you'll face when a sick patient's very life depends on the decisions you'll have to make about their treatment. As the previous post advised, learn to relax destress. You'll live longer.

Indeed, great advice. Knowing yourself to separate your identity and self esteem from those around you, having a strong internal locus of control are priceless. Ritual adherence to some method of releasing stress will be of incalculable value. I don't golf. It's an insane game foisted on us by the Scots, but then who else would enjoy such a joke? I go beat on hot irons. Some people here enjoy collecting rocks and the odd salvageable bits of sharpish stuff.

Originally Posted by Str8Shooter

...As far as med school I highly encourage you to go the PA route. better autonomy, and more control over the course of your carreer. Plus you dont have the innsurance bills of an MD. Also look at going for a DO degree. Same privilges as an MD but may be easier to get into a program.

In contrast however, of the 205 people who started in my class in med school (DO), two of us were nurses, and fifty were PAC's. Why would that many want to go back to med school after PA school?

They do the same work as a doctor for half the income. In point of fact, the costs/overhead for a PAC are the same as for a physician including malpractice. The risks in decision making are the same. There is significantly much less autonomy for a PAC as it is still considered a dependent practice according to most practice acts in all states although they should really get the politicians to change that. The nurses have a better deal with Nurse Practitioners because their practice is more independent. Plus all the mid-level providers have to content with the jealousy of their supervising physicians who consider them a threat to their income because they take away patients from their practices. Let's see, all the responsibility and half the paycheck? I'd go to med school.

It's not easier to get into a DO program. The requirements are the same, but the curriculum gives you the experience in cracking every knuckle in the human body on top of all the other allopathic stuff. The work is the same for either branch and the ridiculous prejudices are slowly but surely fading. We are not chiropractors. If they would tell the truth they stole it all from us in the first place. There are good and bad in all the types of practice and many who would have been good but never took the shot or had the chance. My barber is a better psychologist than a lot I've met, and that's but one example.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

....PS - I was a physics major in college, and I TA'ed classes that premed kids took. One professor told me a story about a premed kid who asked why he had to take physics. The professor answered "So idiots can't be doctors." While I think that statement is a bit harsh, I think it's pretty undeniable that, in order to do physics, you must learn to think in a logical, orderly way, and you must learn how to problem solve systematically.

This is good too. You can't work in any business without problem solving skills. I would add a liberal dose of teaching kids at a very early age how to play checkers and chess. Both of those games teach the even more (Need to Know) critical skill of consequential thinking. Sometimes that's missing in medicine and elsewhere, because the recipe followers just dose the patient with whatever the standard of care says and they do not stop to examine the consequences of their actions.

Not all people react well to the variety of pills we try to get them to take. If you watch even one Erectile Dysfunction advertisement, the idea of a four hour erection requiring a trip to the Emergency Room is no joke. And the fact that another recipe follower may have given the patient a handful of other pills that do not play well together in the previously discussed chemical soup is a real possibility. Neither provider may be paying close attention to what else is going on with a system that is not their area of expertise and there is a real risk that a generalist like me is not in charge of seeing the big picture for the whole patient. Someone has to think about the consequences of their actions. All of us mean well, but that does not guarantee it will turn out that way. One of the major faults in the present US system of health care, IMO, is that there are too few people responsible for seeing the whole and too many specialty services who don't concern themselves with anything other than their very narrow view. There are exceptions.

Originally Posted by animalwithin

...and I"ll be the first to admit my failures.

You will fail. That is guaranteed. Get used to it. Try to prevent it when you can and own it when you can't. Dodging responsibility will earn you the disrespect of all the good folks you work with, and time spent gaining a legal education you will wish you hadn't had to. The best docs I have ever met can recite the details of every one of their mistakes with an intensity intended to make sure that none of us ever make the same mistake they did. The hardest thing to learn is to forgive yourself.

Professionalism is a state of mind, not something that you wear on the outside of your body, not reflected in any of the wallpaper from any school you ever attended, not something you can ever say about your self.