Thread: Are you "Furious".

Originally Posted by MasterMason03

That is what makes this country the best in the world. That people from all persuasions can enjoin in lively, spirited debate. I totally support your position to disagree with me. It is what civil discourse is all about.

Sounds great!
I just had a discussion the other day with a fellow from the other side of the political spectrum, and we pretty much did the same.
That is, conclude that it is great that we live in a nation where we can actually do that...
Wether or nat that makes us the greatest nation out there, well, that is in the eyes of the beholder now isn't it?

Originally Posted by Crotalus

What can possibly be grey about dead people and no one held accountable?

As a Floridian, the Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman debate comes to mind. Or, to a grander scale, who's ultimately accountable for deaths during a war? Not everyone will agree upon what the answer is -- that is what gives a gray area.

Originally Posted by Birnando

Wether or nat that makes us the greatest nation out there, well, that is in the eyes of the beholder now isn't it?

Nope. My nation has me, therefore it is better than the others!

We are number one! All others are number two or lower.

So if I understand this right. You guys think that if the gunwalking tactic hadn't been used, then those criminals wouldn't have guns? Maybe I'm oversimplifying.

Do you guys have any idea how many federal investigations go south with serious to tragic consequences? Do you think no one finds out about it and it just slips under the rug? I say this with personal knowledge. Those incidents are investigated and dealt with EXACTLY the way this one is. The only difference this time is the right wing media in a continual quest to discredit this administration leaves no stone unturned to find anything and use their wind-age to blow it out of proportion hoping the mainstream media will then pick it up to give it legitimacy. The old watch phrase once again is "don't confuse me with the facts I've already made up my mind".

Originally Posted by regularjoe

So if I understand this right. You guys think that if the gunwalking tactic hadn't been used, then those criminals wouldn't have guns? Maybe I'm oversimplifying.

Now don't you go and bring logic to this discussion. These folks are in hysteria mode. I guess they would just like to get a rope and take care of some business eh?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

First of all this operation was conceived and started during the Bush administration. The present administration actually stopped the operation once it became aware of it.

it's just one of many federal law Enforcement Operations over the years that are started out of good intentions but along the way something goes wrong.

The only difference here is the Republicans are using it for political purposes.

My understanding is the wacko right wing media is trying to turn this into some ridiculous secret plot by the present administration to take away peoples guns.

Well, I was pretty convinced when I opened this thread that I'd just cruise through and read but apparently someone has overdosed on NPR and needs a ride back to Literalville.

1. Fast and Furious was NOT conceived under Dubya's administration. There was a similar operation called "Wide Receiver" that involved 300 or so weapons BUT when it became apparent that there was no way to track these weapons and the potential for it getting out of hand was pretty darned high, the plug was pulled and Wide Receiver was shut down. By contrast, Fast and Furious came into being after Mexican President Felipe Calderone came for a visit in 2009. He pointed out that reinstating the assault weapons ban would curve violence in Mexico. Our illustrious leader (being an upstanding citizen of the world) agreed that we were a horrible country and that an unarmed citizenry would kill two birds with one stone (i.e. smooch Calderone's culu as well as eliminating a very troublesome aspect of that pesky Constitution thing.) So Holder engages with Fast and Furious only this time with about 8 times more weapons. Bottom line, they lost most of the guns and at least two of them were involved in the slaughter of Brian Terry (the Border Patrol Agent.)

2. Political purposes!??? This guy got killed because of the DOJ's dereliction of duty! The committee is trying to figure out why that happened and Holder's been stonewalling them and ignoring their requests for documentation for over a year. What's more he really seems to have trouble keeping his versions of the truth sorted out. For example, HOLDER: Fast and Furious was a Bush operation and Bush's Attorney General knew about it. COMMITTEE: No kidding!? We'd like to see some documentation to back that up. HOLDER: I'd like to redact my previous statement. Then there's Nancy Pelosi, Crotalus, I think we maybe screwed, the botox queen has figured out the hidden agenda. Since Holder is the guy in charge of preventing voter intimidation, the Republicans just want to get rid of him so they can cheat. Yeah, Holder is a real hawk when it comes to voter intimidation, look how quick he went after a slam dunk case of voter intimidation by the New Black Panther party...well wait, he did nothing. And tell me again who insists that dead people and illegal immigrants remain on the voter roles? NOT Republicans.

Bottom line is if there were a matched set of testicles anywhere in this administration, the Attorney General would cooperate fully with the investigation into Brian Terry's murder (assuming of course he had any integrity.) Every thing else aside, it's just the right thing to do. If his department is found to be guilty of wrongdoing, he salutes smartly, takes his butt kicking like a grown man and then goes out and fixes the problem by holding those involved accountable. My biggest problems with the whole darned thing are:
1. Imagine I was under investigation for a crime and refused to surrender the documents requested, lied on more than a few occassions and generally stonewalled the investigation. I bet I'd be duck walked off to the penitentiary for contempt of court, purgery, and obstruction of justice, quicker than you can say soap on a damn rope.

2. This guy Holder doesn't seem to have too much trouble making sure that terrorists (domestic and otherwise) get justice but doesn't feel someone in the military, border agents, or cops deserve the same justice. Had the voter intimidation involved the Ku Klux Klan, I doubt he would have just let it slide. You'd think that if anyone still understood that we are a country governed by laws, it would be the attorney general. I guess he 's a perfect fit for this administration full of scam artists.

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Allowing illegal purchases of guns was legal? Allowing people to carry illegal guns to Mexico was legal?

Even if the first two were legal, lying about it to Congress was certainly illegal and they have Holder dead to rights on this one.

I agree with you about lying to congress. That is a big nono. No discussion there. And Obama is burning his hands by doing this.

However, allowing shipments of guns to go through is no different from the DEA allowing certain shipments to go through in order to get to the big fish. Similar patterns exist with the IRS and SEC, and probably every 3 letter agency. They are happy enough to grant immunity to the little fish in order to get testimony and cooperation, and to turn a blind eye towards small scale things.

You can't really pin that sort of thing on the individuals or political parties involved. This has been going on since a long time, across the entire political spectrum.

Originally Posted by Bruno

You can't really pin that sort of thing on the individuals or political parties involved. This has been going on since a long time, across the entire political spectrum.

Well played good Sir!

Originally Posted by jdto

It's funny how the winds on all these rant threads tend to blow from the starboard...

Wait until next week when the Supreme Court rules in favor of 70% of Americans and kills Obamacare. And November? Forget about it, I for one am spiking football early and often.