Thread: Never again!

As with most things in our complex world, there is no one solution to the problem of occasional (and possibly growing?) outbursts of support for this kind of hatred. I don't know whether to blame a lack of understanding of history - and as an historian, I'm a little biased in favour of that viewpoint, the consequence of real or perceived lack of opportunity which is often closely linked to poverty, the manifestation of latent human fears of the 'other', or ignorance and plain old dumbassedness, or some combination of all the above and other factors.

There seems to be at best a bubbling undercurrent of hatred in most if not all modern human societies. And at worst there can be an extraordinarily destructive eruption of violence that results from that hatred. In western society, the Jewish community has of course long been the most horribly victimized. Not only during the 1930s and 1940s, but stretching back millenia. The holocaust stands out because of the sheer scale of the thing, the industrialization of mass murder, and the intent to destroy an entire people. The holocaust was humanity's greatest crime against itself and that should never ever be forgotten. But at the same time its exceptionality should not stop us from discussing other examples of bigotry, hatred, and genocide. And examining other events should never take away from the suffering of all victims of the holocaust which of course included others such as Romani, GBLT persons, and others deemed less than human.

So then, how do we deal with this? I would suggest looking at the root causes. It is not at all difficult to understand how the NSDAP came into power in Germany in 1933. Just read some contemporary newspapers to get a sense of the absolute desperation felt by the German people. Desperate people look to simple solutions, and the NSDAP came along with a simple explanation of why the people were suffering, whom to blame, and a programme laying out what needed to be done to fix the solution. I am much less familiar with other genocidal events (Armenia, former Yugoslavia, Rwanda for starters) and so cannot speak to those situations. But I suspect that one would probably find some combination of desperation, poverty, perception of the 'other' as a cause of suffering, and a simplistic populist 'solution' to the problem amounting to the subjugation and eventual expulsion/extermination of the 'other'.

Education alone cannot fix this. It can certainly help and I would suggest it is the best starting point. While it can help address the fear of the 'other', and allow people to gain a more nuanced understanding of a situation that will make them less susceptible to simplistic populist 'cures' for society's ills, education alone will not address the other root causes. Young people in particular have to see a way forward that does not depend on hatred and blame. They need opportunities, they need hope, they need an opportunity to focus on the positives in this wonderful world, and not to focus on a perceived need to apportion blame.

Hmm... I've just realized I've taken a very macro approach to this, but I think the same arguments still apply to individuals as well as larger groups/societies. Deal with fear of the 'other' through education. Deal with desperation and hopelessness by providing opportunity. I think that would go a long way to nipping this in the bud.

On a side note, for anyone interested in the history of the swastika and its original meaning, check out: Manwoman.net

Through a series of events far too long to relate here, my Dad got to know this artist and to say he's an interesting dude would be a serious understatement. But to make a long story short, one of his missions in life is to restore the swastika to its original (i.e. pre-Nazi) meaning. How's that for an uphill battle?

As far as 'never again' goes .... I grew up in the immediate post war years and took that as a given. Then along came Pol Pot in Cambodia. In more recent years the genocide in Rwanda. Of course Hitler's genocide was mechanized and surpassed any before or since in sheer numbers. I've read that Stalin killed even more but I don't know if that is accurate.

As for the kids today, watch "Pulp Fiction" with its glorifying of violence. Entertainment featuring murder, homosexual sodomy, a scene in which a man is shot accidentally, spattering his brains all over the interior of an automobile, is added for comic relief. They say a society can be judged by its art. I use the phrase loosely. In "Silence Of The Lambs" a serial killer is portrayed as an attractive character. A sequel is made in which he is the featured character and again is portrayed in a heroic manner. Is it any wonder that we have what we have in this country today ?


Written in 1784 by poet Robert Burns;

Man was made to mourn: A Dirge ;

Many and sharp the num'rous ills
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, -
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

I think education about anything negative, meant to stop the negative acts themselves, can actually have a reverse effect of informing and exciting a negative tendency. Some people I know (myself included, when in the army) gave undue reward and favour to violence as a form of control, enacting our own version of 'right' and as a hobby. Violence and hate can be a drug. I feel young people, already possibly disenfranchised, aggressive, arrogant, might embrace the idea rather than shun it.

I believe you are correct with respects to mild education. The phrase " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is very true. People will act on a small bit of information and it will often be an action that is way off target than the initial purpose. I truly believe that our problem isn't education backfiring, but that we leave too many holes in the picture in and effort to pack it into a school semester.

Human animals are really not very nice creatures. They have been torturing and killing each other well before recorded history and probably always will. You know the story of the farmer who got sick and tired having the fox raid his hen-houses so he made a deal where the fox would actually protect the hens in return for tribute in the form of hens to feed his family. After a few weeks all the hens were gone. The farmer said to the fox, we had a deal and the fox said yea, I know and I'm sorry but you know it's just in my nature. That's how it is with Humans. It's just in our nature.

It just seems the more intelligent creatures are the more violent they are for violence sake. I suspect it's that way everywhere there are people.

I don't believe civilized Humans (with normal mentations) are prone to wantonly kill and torture there own kind,do not think it is in our nature.Perhaps it is a cultural thing,just do not understand.
An interesting book I just finished states a horrible statistic from the last war we actually won (WW2) POWs of all nationalitys died from torture, starvation etc at a rate of:1% in German and Italian POW camps,whereas those held by the Japanese died at a rate of 36%, perplexing to me.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

It just seems the more intelligent creatures are the more violent they are for violence sake.

The more 'intelligent' use violence as a means to an end. Greed, lust and territorial ambition seem to be the main reasons.
The less well-educated, and sometimes the downtrodden, use violence because they have no other means to express themselves.
Violence purely for the sake of it seems to be the province more of the mob or the deranged, neither group being well known for their brainpower.

Originally Posted by welshwizard

The more 'intelligent' use violence as a means to an end. Greed, lust and territorial ambition seem to be the main reasons.
The less well-educated, and sometimes the downtrodden, use violence because they have no other means to express themselves.
Violence purely for the sake of it seems to be the province more of the mob or the deranged, neither group being well known for their brainpower.

Here's a interesting read about the very rich and very educated Stanford students.
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by xuz

Here's a interesting read about the very rich and very educated Stanford students.
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good reference. I first read this study as an undergrad in PSY 111 (Intro) and partially replicated it in PSY 425L (Cognitive Lab).

The layer of our civilization is very thin if the circumstances are wrong. Doesn't take much to turn ordinary, decent people like you and me into someones who are capable of doing horrible things, and even be sure they are doing it for greater good.
I've visited in some of those camps in Poland. Personally i think 'never again' is an empty phrase, considering what happens even today.
Nazis were not only after jews, but romani, sexual minorities, mentally ill people, criminals and even Russian pow's. And what Stalin did in gulags was as terrible, although i think it is naive to think who was the worst as they were all something beyond understanding.

From those times we haven't done much. Since then there has been Srebrenica, Rwanda and Darfur, only to mention a few. Also what the French did in Algeria or what happened in places like My Lai, Chetnya and Abu Grabi tells that we are perfectly capable of violating human rights, happily. Or how many innocent civilians IDF and Hamas have murdered this far, being sure they are doing it for the greater good. The list goes on. No reason to be proud.

While being in deployment years ago i had and unhappy change of serving some time near Srebrenica. The international investing committee, led by dr. Helana Ranta, was already digging up the corpses. I have no much to say about that. Locals sarcastically called the whole tragedy as the last triumph of Christianity. Tradition of revenge, or getting even, goes on for centuries to come.

What comes to op i'm sure it's just ignorant kids doing something they think is real bad. Such things happen every now and then. Kids draw it in churches and mosques and once they did it even into local police station. Swastika symbol has been here since the ice age, meaning good luck. It is a shame that nazis spoiled it all. Our Air Force still has blue swastika in their flag. Been there since 1918.

There is no answer what could be done to prevent tragedies now and in the future. We are not so different than our ancestors. When the times go bad, we a ready to follow the leader for the greater good, country or whatever.

One way is to make it all ridiculous. Here's just one example.
Finnish Nazi dog

Power is a dangerous drug. The power to end lives is the ultimate power, and one that everyone possesses. People don't need much to use and enjoy that power, which is what scares a lot of people. That is why we often condone or sometimes support violence purpetrated by others; we feel the need for a strong emotional expression (i.e. anger) but feels it goes against our civilised nature so we have others do it or don't oppose the ones in charge of the violence. Either out of fear for the violence to turn towards us or out of fear to act out violently ourselves. Fear of the power of violence, that's one reason that adds to the large groups of 'innocent bystanders', on a large scale such as Nazi Germany but also in cases where a group of people acts out violently towards a (perceived) evil.

The expression "Ich habe es nicht gewusst" ("I didn't know") uttered after WWII by many a German speaks volumes, and not just about the Germans but about people in general. It's not just the 1% purpotrating the violence, also the 99% that doesn't physically object to it has blood on its hands.