Thread: Heaven, Hell, and Crime

It was Twain citing Disraeli.

Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review

But getting back to the point of the OP, I think that Twain did say it best.

"Dying man couldn't make up his mind which place to go to -- both have their advantages, "heaven for climate, hell for company!"
- Mark Twain's Notebooks and Journals, vol. 3

Originally Posted by Bruno

Note that I am not talking about individuals, but tendencies in a large group.

I see, because I was completely looking at this from the individual perspective. It makes more sense in the example you gave, but I am still a little hesitant to believe the chart for what it says. I would be more inclined to say that religions help a persons morality, but they do not define it.

Originally Posted by JackofDiamonds

The problem with these correlational studies is that they try to hard to prove influence and not just relation...

Take ice cream and murder rates. As ice cream sale raise, so do murder rates. Does this mean humans are influenced by the sweet dairy goodness to go out an kill one another?! ... No, that's absurd. But the link is temperature. As summer peaks, ice cream sales go up and people get more irritable due to extreme heat.

I would love to hear the problem is we have too many people believing in heaven and not enough in hell. It would give me something to preach at my store. But I am too much of a skeptic to take this at face value.

Correlational studies try to show influence of variables under study, not prove influence. "Prove" is an absolute term that NO scientist or statistician can use.

I think what the study is trying to say is that crime rates are higher where people think they can get away with the crime (divine forgiveness) and lower where they believe there will be accountability and punishment (hell).

But does this hold out when considering countries with strict law enforcement and penal systems?

Or compare murder rates in U.S. states with and without the death penalty. Those states with a death penalty (and that actually use it) should have much lower murder rates if fear of retribution has any effect. Or could it just be the fear of eternal damnation? In which case there should also be a decrease in voting Democrat....

Originally Posted by JackofDiamonds

I see, because I was completely looking at this from the individual perspective. It makes more sense in the example you gave, but I am still a little hesitant to believe the chart for what it says. I would be more inclined to say that religions help a persons morality, but they do not define it.

That's interesting in itself right there. I can't find it but I have a chart somewhere that shows a massively strong correlation between a country's wealth (I think in terms of GPD per Capita) and the loss of faith.

America was a huge outlier... of course, but the fact of the matter is the richer individuals are (except in America) - the more likely they are to have little to no faith. Surely we wouldn't say the Dutch are inclined to have less morality are we?

Moreover, the more affluent you are the less likely you are to not only have less kids, but not even maintain the population! I am not sure what it all means... other than Mathis was wrong lol.

Also.... Correlation does not equal causation.

Originally Posted by maddafinga

Also.... Correlation does not equal causation.

CORRECT!!! If a mouse lives in a jar it doesn't mean he's a cookie!

Originally Posted by maddafinga

Also.... Correlation does not equal causation.

Absolutely true, I just thought this was more of a indirect correlation. It wasn't my intention to mean causation, just that they were not directly correlated and that some external concept was affecting them.

Originally Posted by earcutter

That's interesting in itself right there. I can't find it but I have a chart somewhere that shows a massively strong correlation between a country's wealth (I think in terms of GPD per Capita) and the loss of faith.

America was a huge outlier... of course, but the fact of the matter is the richer individuals are (except in America) - the more likely they are to have little to no faith. Surely we wouldn't say the Dutch are inclined to have less morality are we?

Moreover, the more affluent you are the less likely you are to not only have less kids, but not even maintain the population! I am not sure what it all means... other than Mathis was wrong lol.

Excellent post! This has been really fun thinking about. Thank you for posting this.

Originally Posted by mapleleafalumnus

CORRECT!!! If a mouse lives in a jar it doesn't mean he's a cookie!

What!!! Sacrilege!! I was always told that it looked like a cookie, lived where cookies live, and can somehow be baked to taste like a cookie....

Then more than likely IT IS A COOKIE!!!!