Thread: Obama won re election

Originally Posted by DaveW

I didn't agree, in terms of the quality of care, it's better here than anywhere else in the world *if you can pay*. That's not really debatable, speed of care is faster, too.

It is worse in terms of the overal effect on society. It is becoming a luxury item, with bad consequences for the whole economy. Insurance tied to employment means less workforce mobility, the ability for high-risk people to be excluded from insurance unless they can pay exorbitant premiums goes against the whole point of spreading the risk by buying insurance. The ability to get the terms of coverage changed on a whim is adding big insecurity and risk to the workforce (a friend's company just got bought out and he suddenly finds himself in a $10k hole, because the pregnancy of his wife is not covered the same way as it was up to this point).

And that's really the best free market solution, because it maximizes the profits and weeds out the uncompetitive players (those who are high risk and cannot afford to pay). The economic value of these people is negative, so the free market simply says they have to die.

If you're the rule-making government you can certainly mandate that nobody is excluded based on their risk, but unless you also mandate that everybody participates in the pool, the people who are low risk can simply opt-out, and then the insurance companies are stuck with the burden of paying for people's irresponsible behavior.

Ultimately if you claim that the human life is really important, which our society does, you cannot allow the free market to establish its value based on simple economics. It just degrades the moral fabric of the society. You certainly end up with valuation one way or another, but you have to burry it several levels and make it very indirect.


I would disagree with FDIC and flood insurance though - the risk is very measurable and plenty of private companies do it day and night. But again, if you leave the government out of it, and don't force those who have built their houses on a rock to pay for the bad decisions of those who built them on sand, you start to unravel the fabric of the society. To me it's a matter of balance.

The US constitution states that the role of government among other things is to promote the general welfare. I would think that if the free market can not provide a solution which is good for the society then the government is perfectly justified to step in to some degree, though exactly what should be on a case by case basis.
For example having a luxury health care for those who can afford it, while leaving those who are too poor or too risky out in the cold may have been perfectly fine few hundred years ago, but nowadays in a society with our values is just bad and rather shortsighted.

Originally Posted by WhiteLion

Obama had the Senate majority for his first four years.

Yes, and he decided to use it for the biggest thing that he could possibly do - start a health care reform. His choice and he managed to get it through, but he completely failed with the PR.

The current positive economic signs were far from given, especially in view of the state of the global economy. I think Obama just got lucky, although I'm sure that the european leaders understand very well the implications of any potential storm over there on the US elections. The chinese too, but with a transition of their own the stability in China was pretty much ensured to be rock solid.
Still the world economy is a finicky thing and nobody can have full control, they can only bias it one way or another, that's why I think Obama just got lucky.
For good or for bad, presidents are never judged on their merit alone, doing the very best possible with a terrible hand can still be judged as failure at the ballot box.

One thing that isn't getting allot of "play" is that I believe the Supreme Court of America is due for two new appointee's. This is for some HUGE.

Clearly Obama's picks will be vastly different than Romney's would have been. Moreover, the impact on Americans because of it will in my humble opinion be quite substantial.

Oh well - that's how it goes.

Four more years of Bush-bashing. yay

Originally Posted by mapleleafalumnus

America will be just fine. I've been hearing the same "gloom and doom" crap about every newly-elected president since Nixon, and America's still here.
The American people have spoken. Deal.

Yep, and Rome is still in Italy.

Originally Posted by DaveW

They did? What did they say?

"If a child is born from rape, then that was God's plan"
"If a woman is raped, abortion is not necessary because a woman's body has ways of dealing with that"
"47% of the Americans are freeloaders"

I'm sure there are more.
Not only do he and the republican party officials alienate significant groups of voters, but a large number of moderates in any demographic look at those insults and say 'Dude... really..!?'

I just read a newspaper article which mentioned that a deciding factor for Obama was the huge turnout of youth and minorities.
Young voter turnout was even higher than in 2008.

If this is indeed correct, the republican party is going to get it rough. In another 4 years time, the democrats will have an even bigger voter base, whereas a lot more republican voters will have changed the temporal for the eternal. I think they will have to do a reality check and get rid of the fringe lunatics, the hardliners and the plain stupid. If they don't, then 2016 will be an even bigger disaster.

EDIT:
Out of curiosity I visited a forum that I've abandoned a long time ago. Their off topic forums are populated by a number of 'foaming at the mouth' right wingers. According to them, Romney was killed by the fact that he was a much too nice man who didn't fight back. Their hope is for a 2016 republican candidate who is much more aggressive and conservative than Romney. Imo, if that happens, then the race will be over before it has even started.

Originally Posted by mapleleafalumnus

David, like it or not, Obama is the president now, and the GOP can do nothing about it. Time for the Republicans to bend over and take it like men!

I'm thinking men in your part of the world may be a little different to us men here MLA.

Originally Posted by Theseus

I've honestly never been as apethetic as I've been with this election. Neither candidate really wowed me and I still see no bipartisanship in the near future. My only hope is that the duds the major parties keep pushing on us will lead to the emergance of a viable third party that actually cares for the American people beyond the election cycle.

Don't hold your breath there. We've been waiting for that in Australia for years. Hasn't happened yet...Apparently! At least not going by the average voters choices anyway.

I haven't read all the posts over the twelve or so pages...Too damn late for me and I need to go to bed


Mick

Originally Posted by gugi

So, what is the argument against the government getting (more) involved in the healthcare business?

I think everybody agreed that the socialized system US had wasn't working well, certainly did not compare well against the government run systems of other developed countries.

ill hold my hands up straight away and admit im not an American but i wanted to throw my 10 pence in about healthcare.

Here in the UK, where we have free medical care (called the NHS), the majority of us dont have private healthcare plans as we pay taxes via our income. Its cheaper than private healthcare and the medical attention that we get is, at the moment, usually very good but the problem with our system is that the money a lot of us pay is now failing to prop up the NHS budgets.

Our healthcare system is now under pressure from people from abroad who have not contributed anything (im not saying everyone from abroad does this but there are a large number that do), people who are resident who solely rely on our 'fantastic' benefit system where they can get paid for virtually doing nothing and dont contribute to anything (thats another argument for a different day) and due to increased running costs.

Due to this i am seeing more and more people are paying for private health care, vital jobs are being cut in our hospitals and people are receiving poorer care (for instance my grandmother has been waiting nearly 10 years to have a knee operation but it keeps being put back has now developed a heart condition which means she cant have the treatment otherwise she faces an early dinner date with the big guy upstairs - had this appointment gone ahead 10 years or even 5 years ago she wouldnt be in this mess).

The NHS has been amazing for many years and has saved millions of lives but in this day and age it is now a bottomless money pit that is really feeling the strain.

To set up a scheme like our NHS would take a rediculous amount of cash and to maintain that scheme would also take a rediculous amount of cash. What will peoples views be who work extremely hard long hours (like me and no doubt yourself) and pay more taxes when they receive the same care, if not worse, for someone who has never contributed a penny. It will create a divide.

Its a very serious debate. On one hand you have the people who work damn hard funding it and being financially stretched with more taxes with LOTS of people contributing nothing and on the other hand you have the whole human and peoples rights to a healthy life. I can see it from both sides but coming from a country where i can see what is happening with our healthcare system more and more of me thinks that the current American healthcare arrangements are actually the way forward.


I hope ive not offended anyone guys. if i have i apologise (i say holding a white flag )

Originally Posted by tbert33

ill hold my hands up straight away and admit im not an American but i wanted to throw my 10 pence in about healthcare.

Here in the UK, where we have free medical care (called the NHS), the majority of us dont have private healthcare plans as we pay taxes via our income. Its cheaper than private healthcare and the medical attention that we get is, at the moment, usually very good but the problem with our system is that the money a lot of us pay is now failing to prop up the NHS budgets.

Our healthcare system is now under pressure from people from abroad who have not contributed anything (im not saying everyone from abroad does this but there are a large number that do), people who are resident who solely rely on our 'fantastic' benefit system where they can get paid for virtually doing nothing and dont contribute to anything (thats another argument for a different day) and due to increased running costs.

Due to this i am seeing more and more people are paying for private health care, vital jobs are being cut in our hospitals and people are receiving poorer care (for instance my grandmother has been waiting nearly 10 years to have a knee operation but it keeps being put back has now developed a heart condition which means she cant have the treatment otherwise she faces an early dinner date with the big guy upstairs - had this appointment gone ahead 10 years or even 5 years ago she wouldnt be in this mess).

The NHS has been amazing for many years and has saved millions of lives but in this day and age it is now a bottomless money pit that is really feeling the strain.

To set up a scheme like our NHS would take a rediculous amount of cash and to maintain that scheme would also take a rediculous amount of cash. What will peoples views be who work extremely hard long hours (like me and no doubt yourself) and pay more taxes when they receive the same care, if not worse, for someone who has never contributed a penny. It will create a divide.

Its a very serious debate. On one hand you have the people who work damn hard funding it and being financially stretched with more taxes with LOTS of people contributing nothing and on the other hand you have the whole human and peoples rights to a healthy life. I can see it from both sides but coming from a country where i can see what is happening with our healthcare system more and more of me thinks that the current American healthcare arrangements are actually the way forward.


I hope ive not offended anyone guys. if i have i apologise (i say holding a white flag )

If you subscribe to the notion that health care is just another commodity to be bought and sold and if you can't afford it you simply die then our system is meant for you. The fact is folks in this country die every day because they have no health insurance and don't fall into the low income requirements to get free care. Too many folks here have dead wrong thoughts about what would happen if they needed serious healthcare and many with insurance are clueless about what it doesn't cover because they have never had to use it for something major.

There is no greater shock you can receive than being told you have a life threatening condition which can be treated and then being told by a hospital they want 100 grand from you up front before they will admit you. Many in that circumstance who don't have substantial funds simple go home and await their fate.