Thread: Obama won re election

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Stock market is showing Love today for Mr O

See! Now let's see the money trickle down!
More jobs already!

If I die with $1 million in the bank, then I've lost $1 million -- I have nothing to show for it. If I die $1 million in debt, then I've had one helluva good time!

Originally Posted by DaveW

Fiscal irresponsibility in the US isn't due to lack of provided health care or how big of a boat someone 3 states away has, it exists at the individual level, and the monetary virtue and thrift that a lot of western europeans have (germany, belgium, etc) doesn't generally exist in the US. It is systemic here, and to pretend that it is a small structural matter and not the fault of individuals is disingenuous. It is more like greece on an individual level here for a large part of the population, and it is consumption driven, consumption without regard to production or means. Belgium, Germany, UK, etc, don't have middle class folks trying to outlive their standard of living at the same rate.

Sage point.

I live in Belgium. The majority of the people I know will never consider spending more money per month than what they earn per month. Buying things on credit is not done a lot here, although it exists. most people I know budget their income up front so that you know at the beginning of the month what you have to work with when all fixed costs (mortgage, heating, etc) are accounted for.

From time to time our costs are bigger. For example if something breaks down. That is what savings accounts are for. On a yearly basis, the typical Belgian will never spend more than he earns, and will typically put money in a savings account or investment.

Bruno --
I'm certain that you're well aware that American gov't.'s from the state level on up are huge fans of deficit spending. Here in Michigan, Gov. John Engler had 5 consecutive years of deficit spending. Michigan has been broke since the middle of his second term (1998). Gotta love that particular Republican governour!

Originally Posted by mapleleafalumnus

Bruno --
I'm certain that you're well aware that American gov't.'s from the state level on up are huge fans of deficit spending. Here in Michigan, Gov. John Engler had 5 consecutive years of deficit spending. Michigan has been broke since the middle of his second term (1998). Gotta love that particular Republican governour!

Fiscal irresponsibility in the US knows no political bounds.

The way all of our systems are set up, from infrastructure to public pensions, there is never a political incentive to do anything other than spend past means, and be as irresponsible as possible about truing up or funding pre-funded ventures. Or as my grandmother used to say about me as a kid (you'll never be able to keep your hot little hands out of your pocket if you have 5 dollars sitting in it doing nothing for you at the time).

Originally Posted by Bruno

I also like to point out that the 'freeloader' argument is incorrect.

I live in a country that is way more socialist than what Obama is being accused of. Most of the people I know here are hard working people as well. We all work our jobs. We just like some stuff to be provided as cost efficient as possible.

If you gain cost efficiency from your gov't, I tip my hat to your gov't. In the US, there is no possible way that you will send $5 of tax into the government and spit out $10 of services. I am highly suspect that you can either but I will concede not be an authority on your political system.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Sage point.

I live in Belgium. The majority of the people I know will never consider spending more money per month than what they earn per month. Buying things on credit is not done a lot here, although it exists. most people I know budget their income up front so that you know at the beginning of the month what you have to work with when all fixed costs (mortgage, heating, etc) are accounted for.

From time to time our costs are bigger. For example if something breaks down. That is what savings accounts are for. On a yearly basis, the typical Belgian will never spend more than he earns, and will typically put money in a savings account or investment.

Trust me, as an admirer of fiscal responsibility in western europe (and a descendant of german and german swiss), I wish we - as individuals and as a group - had the discipline that exists in belgium, german, switzerland, etc. It is going to need to come from the liberal side of the aisle in the US, though, just like cuts in medicare, etc, need to, because a moderate conservative politician will be branded as a "tea party grandma killer" if they'd try such a thing.

I just don't think most folks have the heart to live within their means, and most don't even understand fully that they're not living within their means, because we're so dependent on consumer dollars for economic growth. It's almost as if you're speaking profanity here if you tell someone they need to cut back on spending in their house.... a dirty thing, because you're telling them to kill the economy in some peoples' eyes. So instead, the populace is told "it's never been a better time to borrow, and the economy needs your dollars, keep borrowing and spending...you'll be a fiscal martyr at worst...a hero".

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

If you gain cost efficiency from your gov't, I tip my hat to your gov't. In the US, there is no possible way that you will send $5 of tax into the government and spit out $10 of services. I am highly suspect that you can either but I will concede not be an authority on your political system.

Many of the western european governments are very tidy with their money, and very smart about their fiscal setup in terms of future social benefits, funded or not. Unlike us, when they make an obligation for themselves, like pensions, they make part of the obligation variable based on economic experience, and they fund a lot of their obligation up front uniformly.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Question is which is the lesser evil? The one you know or the one you do not know?

It always seems that the Republicans look out for the rich, and everyone else tries to look out for the majority, the poor. I see Obama's first term as four years cleaning up the mess of the previous administration - I'd say that's a 10 year job. I see most policies he wanted to enact stunted by the Republicans in the House.

IMO, The lesser of two evils is the one that's honest about his plight.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Many of the western european governments are very tidy with their money, and very smart about their fiscal setup in terms of future social benefits, funded or not. Unlike us, when they make an obligation for themselves, like pensions, they make part of the obligation variable based on economic experience, and they fund a lot of their obligation up front uniformly.

Many of the western european governments do what their people want. We've seen it recently - try to take anything away from them, and there's rioting in the streets. USA's government isn't afraid of its people.

That movie V for Vendetta had it right - People shouldn't be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of their people