Thread: Separation of Church and...

Originally Posted by honedright

Just that whole little thing about "Inalienable rights" is dependent upon a higher power. If there is no higher power, then where'd those so called inalienable rights come from? Who or what gave them to you? And if they didn't come from a higher power, then they aren't really inalienable, are they.

Really, you want to go there? Here's the quote you are referring to:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

There is nothing inalienable with 'Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness', as was demonstrated by the exact same people who wrote those words. Good deal of those same people treated human beings with gender and/or skin color different than theirs as property and livestock, denying them any of those so called rights on a regular basis. They formed governments and their descendants fought bloody war with their fellow citizens just to preserve this oppression.

The only reason people have certain rights is because of the social compact that is being agreed upon. Which has been changing dramatically over the history of humankind as we know it, and thus there is is no evidence for the existence of some absolute 'inalienable rights'.

Even if there are some hypothetical higher power from which some inalienable rights derive, as long as that power is unable to secure them on its own, it is all nothing more than a thought construct with no bearing whatsoever on real life. And if that power was able to secure such rights all of its own, there would not be any need for governments, as the quote continues.

I'm still trying to picture all the kids who want to carry bibles to school and pray. I haven't ever personally met any of those kids.

A Governor making policy based on his personal belief in flying saucers is inappropriate and so to is his belief in miracles, angles, a virgin birth, a 2,000 year old planet, etc.

Some things need to be kept separate much like an insane asylum is kept separate from society at large. It's best for both populations.

Originally Posted by gugi

Really, you want to go there? Here's the quote you are referring to:



There is nothing inalienable with 'Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness', as was demonstrated by the exact same people who wrote those words. Good deal of those same people treated human beings with gender and/or skin color different than theirs as property and livestock, denying them any of those so called rights on a regular basis. They formed governments and their descendants fought bloody war with their fellow citizens just to preserve this oppression.

And yet those words were the basis to end those atrocities which still occur in parts of the world where those words have never been honored.

Originally Posted by honedright

And yet those words were the basis to end those atrocities which still occur in parts of the world where those words have never been honored.

Not really. May be you can start backing up your assertions with evidence and reasoned arguments based on valid logic.
You can believe anything you want, but that doesn't make it true or valid for anything other than your own interaction with the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by gugi

Not really. May be you can start backing up your assertions with evidence and reasoned arguments based on valid logic.
You can believe anything you want, but that doesn't make it true or valid for anything other than your own interaction with the rest of the world.

Your unwarranted and ineffectual insults aside; you might do well to follow your own advise.

Another prime example of the old adage of why you don't talk politics or religion with friends. This thread went sideways in a hurry.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt the Bible just a piece of paper (inspired by God) written by man and continually edited by man for centuries to further his own beliefs? and the New Testament was not even written by men who knew Jesus personally, instead it was written 30 years (ish) to centuries after his death. Anything that can be corrupted by man will be, its a sad fact of life.

I believe in God and I believe that you all have the right to believe or not believe. What I believe in most is that God does not belong in politics. If there is a God he would truly be ashamed at men for things that have been done and continue to be done (and said) in his name.

Now if you will all excuse me I have to go prepare my self for the Mayan calender's end of days.

P.S. I do not judge anyone for their views please extend the same courtesy my way