Good point Bob
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Good point Bob
Dudes, I'm still trying to figure out what the hell a "weopen" is??????????
But don't touch my AR's or my AK's...........and please hurry the "f"-up with the 3 stamps that I've been waiting on since the dawn of time. I want my suppressors!
In order to fix a problem like this is you have to fix the way people treat each other. A part of the reason i like being on this forum is that we accept a persons right to there opinion. We need to be kinder to each other. Treat people the way you want to be treated, even if you disagree with them.
I Believe people like this guy snap because they feel they have been wronged some how, and they just want to get back at them.
Or he's just a crazy bastard and should have been locked up in the looniebin.
When talking about gun crimes you shouldn't ignore those who got killed after someone using a gun, unless you want to create your own beautiful soap box.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Now, i'm not trying to say how you should do there. It's a different country and no concern to me, but of course i was shocked to read the news. Maybe even more than you could imagine. So does everyone around i know.
Now, i'm not anti-gun per se. I have my 9 mm and a rifle but i'm first to admit that not everyone is suitable to own such things, no matter what the law says. Law wasn't written by gods but men that were capable of doing mistakes. I have even more guns, issued by my employer (military). Howevers, i do not keep my guns at home. I dot have a need to do that. I live in a society where i do not have to lock my doors.
The killer, unstable mind will always find their ways, but i'll bet that the death toll of Auvinen or Breivik wouldn't have been that terrible if they had used a kitchen knife, hammer or axe. Guns do not kill. i agree, but guns make killing easier, even from a distance.
We have crimes, but say 95% of them is made when drunk by the legal owners or their family members. In general, using violence to solve the problem is no popular solution here.
If i lived in your country, i would probably arm myself up to my teeth if i though it would be necessary to feel safe.
Guns are great for hunting or target shooting but honestly i do not understand the need of someone to own a full auto or even semi auto. But, as said, it's up to you.
Think about your privileges versus those who have been shot, oops, i shouldn't point at them.
We have a lot of hand guns here and the conversation has been very wide.
Recently, some unnamed web person gave an interesting idea: give everyone a hand gun and enough ammo. Within few years check the statistics. Did the gun related violence go up or down?
They just hired 9 more agents to process stamps.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJD
Can't wait to get a few more stamps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor
Try reading it again, you have missed the point
Also what is most foriegn to you is our "Right" to own a weapon, I doubt many Non-Americans can understand that... Nor can I explain it to you, it is something that you have to have been born with, I was born with the "Right" to own a gun, period, no man can deny me that Right, only I can cause/allow it to be lost...
Our country was founded by these words,,, They are an Ideal that was passed to us through our Mother's Milk
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
I think that it's probably too late for the USA to regulate either firearms ownership or those with mental problems. The brutal fact is that there are way too many guns and unidentifiable troubled people out there.
The statement that 'it's not the guns, but the bad people that use them' is correct, but how much better would it be if society made a concerted effort to at least try and prevent weapons falling into the wrong hands? It wouldn't be a complete answer but it could reduce the size of the problem. At present the best people can hope for is to try to contain outbreaks of violence and clear up until the next time. My heart goes out to the victims and families.
I'm not anti-firearm, and speak as a lifelong shooter.
OK, emotion aside, what about just thinking it through logically from a policy point of view?
Since the last massacre in the cinema, what has been done? How about since Columbine? What was done then?
Whatever was or has been done hasn't been working. Next question is: what hasn't been done?
Einstein said it best: "Insanity: doing (or not doing) the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Right now things seem pretty insane to me in the US.
James.
Meeeee Toooo !!!!!!! Damn good thing I am armedQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Read it again and again. To me it's not a problem with man made laws or man made constitution. All the same sh1t if it makes it all possible. .Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
In the perfect world 0% or 100% of people owned a gun.
But we do not live in a perfect society. I'm only interest that what is it the world today, not only in US but the EU as well, when some people find a solution in taking a gun and start shooting innocent people.
I guess we should start by trying to find an answer to that. What makes using a violence as the 1st solution as an acceptable way to behave? Be it good guy or bad guy.
As I said you cannot ever relate... you cannot ever see an American point of view it is just too foriegn to you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor
Solving the "Issue" cannot begin or end with taking my "Rights" because of another's actions, if you don't understand and accept that as a fact, nothing you say can ever be meaningful to an American I tried to explain this during the last discussion but you never understood then either
Too true. But here's what I wonder, if the coroner does an autopsy on the shooter, will the findings of the exam list the doctor prescibed mind-altering medications he was most likely on? I only mention this as alot of us have said incidences like this never occurred while we were going to school, how you could have your rifle in your car or truck in the school parking lot, and I even remember being allowed to carry my swiss army knife to school. But those were different times and we were not the overly medicated society we are now.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrilliumLT
If you have a prescibed antidepressant, it comes with information regarding the potential to have suicidal thoughts, that doesn't sound like any medication I would take. I have a friend who was on antidepressants for awhile and he said while under the influence of it, he felt like a zombie and quickly stop taking the medication. It's estimated 1 in 10 Americans take antidepressants. That's a scary thought.
Astounding increase in antidepressant use by Americans - Harvard Health Publications
Probably i can't and i'm truly sorry for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Honestly i think you should start openly think on how to stop these things in the future.
Not your rights or privileges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor
See how you linked those two words together ??? That is our essential difference, we as Americans do not do that... We know the difference
Well in the US of A, there is Active Shooter Training... I guess "we" let them shoot first and we'll see if we have time to shoot back... Clean up the mess and put the S*$T Bags in jail for life...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I think that is a very valid point and one that isn't stressed enough. The mentality is completely different than any other country I have ever lived in, or traveled to.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
After a mere five and a half years of living here I profess to understand and actually promote that mentality. But I doubt I'll never truly understand. And many here would say I still don't because of the lack of conviction I have for the rights of people who wish to own semi's... and they would be right I think.
That said, I think we all would be better served if we listened to all participants of humanity from wherever it is they hail from. There is so much to learn, and with an issue as tough as this one, passions are hard to overcome when we have created truths and logic that may or may not still be applicable.
Every American doesn't have the right to own a gun. We would like to believe that, but it's not true. Felons are still American's last time I checked. New Yorkers are still Americans last time I checked... kali... well, kali is Kali.
Should American's who want the ability to own any arm they wish fight as hard as they can - heck yes! There is a slippery slope and the constitution has been messed with more than enough. But that's not to say all those individuals who think weapons built to go on the offensive against other humans not deer or what have you, don't have a point as well if they believe that there is no way to stop a government that has the army at its side.
At one time, everyone owning a gun meant you could form an army. No longer. The issues have changed. Those guns designed to kill masses in the hand of the public will only ever be used responsibly or to kill your fellow citizens en mass. The military will not have an issue with you and a hundred of your palls with them.
Whatever happens - I hope it's at the end of a vote and not as Glen states, by an over zealous and uneducated government.
I dont see this a gun issue. As i stated in the othere thread. Crazy People will find a way, Fly a plane into a building, Drive a pickup truck through a cross walk, or bring a gun into a school.
We need to fix the way people treat each other!
David,
Did you just honestly say that New York'rs and West Coasters can't own guns????
I believe you might have that fact wrong
just for Cali
The gun laws of California are some of the strictest in the United States. A Handgun Safety Certificate, obtained by passing a written test, is required for handgun purchases, although there are exemptions to this requirement. Handguns sold by dealers must be "California legal" by being listed on the state's roster of handguns certified for sale. Private sales of firearms must be done through a licensed dealer. All firearm sales are recorded by the state, and have a ten-day waiting period. Unlike most other states, California has no provision in its state constitution that explicitly guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms. The California Supreme Court has maintained that most of California's restrictive gun laws are constitutional based on the fact that the state's constitution does not explicitly guarantee private citizens the right to purchase, possess, or carry firearms. However recent US Supreme Court decisions of Heller (2008) and McDonald (2010) established that the 2nd Amendment applied to all states within the Union, and many of California's gun laws are now being challenged in the federal courts.
And we are born with the right to own a gun read what I wrote again...
I was born with the "Right" to own a gun, period no man can deny me that Right, only I can cause/allow it to be lost
Sorry Glen I was in my own mind but NO they can't own whatever they want. Try getting any handgun you want in New York city and carrying it. Or Kali.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I agree it is your right to own! That is... your right. But states are taking measures to stop what kind of gun you can own.
Hey has any president been shot with a semi?
Checking the Regan shooting that might have been a semiauto .22Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
nope a revolver
Glen - I guess I didn't make this clear. A privilege in my mind is something you have to get an ok for. A right is something that someone can not take away.
Hence, I am not convinced that felons, people in California, Chigago or New York should be told that they need to pass a test or what have you to gain that right.
I might be missing something, but a right is a right - a privilege like carry I guess is is something you need to ask permission for... though it seems dumb to me to not be able to carry if you have a gun??
If we start to ask people for mental health backgrounds, training certificates or even a criminal background check... it seems to me it's no longer a right.
An I missing something?
There are accepted limitations to owning a gun,,,
This is exactly what I meant by causation to lose a right...
If I commit a Felony I have "caused" myself to lose a right in fact they lose the right to vote too...
The commited Mentally Ill have lost rights also, even though many see this as wrong
State/City limitations are on Types of weapons, this even occurs in the Hunting arena, many Eastern states only allow Shotguns for deer hunting .. Most gun owners have no issues with Safety limitations
Isn't that when they started calling small inexpensive firearms "Saturday Night Specials"?Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Well Glen to answer shortly, maybe I was off topic but very much into point. Also to me gun is a gun. Was made do kill. End of story. Regards "RIGHTS"- not all rights which this country is based on are still in use. This rights were created during war time. Now is different time but seem no one care, but care always about the same thing.... money and 20 children is dead.
Becasue of a ILL MINDED Person...Quote:
Originally Posted by proximus26
Ooooooops... I guess this is three or four posts...
I think SNS is more from back in the civil rights era to keep the poor blacks from having access to cheaper pistols to protect themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoseWarmer
Rights are granted by the Creator. Not subject to the whims of current political landscape, be it war or otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by proximus26
Did you say "self protection"? I think alot of people miss that... I have the RIGHT to protect MYSELF and OTHERS in harms way!Quote:
Originally Posted by scap99
I did it again... Number 5!
I hear you. Though I worry because then we are defining right (maybe living with a lawyer has made me worry about that excessively). If we define what kind of gun we are able to own and carry, then we can preserve the word right, but limit all of us as to what.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I don't know what's worse. Seriously.
As it stands, I would rather give up the what and have a revolver or ten... thousand and forgo "weapons created for mass destruction," than lose the right to own anything.
But again... that's just my opinion. It's freaking HARD!
Yes. And gun controllers don't want certain people they deem inferior to have guns. Hence the attack and demonization of cheap firearms back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoseWarmer
This is incorrect in fact 2008 and 2010 re-affirmed our 2nd Amendment rights to mean excatly what they were written as,, we have the RKBAQuote:
Originally Posted by proximus26
I've been following all the back and forth...as I'm somewhere in the middle on this debate and not certain enough in how i feel to subject you guys to my internal debate...but this was the first comment to really stump me considering the context of the conversationQuote:
Originally Posted by scap99
Who said this person was ill minded? Media? I guess they will tell what ever fit best for what ever side they represent and sheep will have to agree without thinking twice...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoseWarmer
Me and my Gill. FREAKING love this song lol - talking about Saturday night specials :).
"Saturday night special just ain't that special... freedom to be afraid is all you want."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcno-p0r5vg
"When the other folks give up theirs I'll give up mine."
I think the point Sailor is/was trying to make is that no matter where you happen to live the question that should be foremost is why people they can do these kinds of despicable acts. That has nothing to do with the method of killing. I also think Sailor knows the difference between a right and a privilege by choosing to separate them with an "or" as in innocent or guilty. That makes them two entirely different things.
Not much to understand about Americans right to have guns, it is pretty plain. It is also pretty plain that you have to get past the tunnel vision of concentrating on guns as an issue and get to the root causes of the abuse of that right. We still have trouble with that concept and the the ownership of guns here is a privilege. I would say it being a right or privilege has little bearing on whether people will abuse it.
Bob
When they Gave you that right they where using Flint locks i believe.
I was responding to Proximus, who implied rights were dynamic rather than static.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanjewell
We are all born with the right to defend ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrilliumLT
No matter the tool of the day.
Ha, sorry...that makes more sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by scap99
No worries. We're running a dozen angles from a dozen points of view from a dozen people. It gets confusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanjewell