Assault weopen carnage agian?

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Originally Posted by scap99

We are all born with the right to defend ourselves.
No matter the tool of the day.

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Its a sad state of affairs if you have to defend yourself in your own Country.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Say it is a sad state of affairs and that is true but if teachers were armed these incidents would have different outcomes ...... if they happened at all.

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Perhaps.
Though you could count on other icidents happening. Kids getting hold of the gun, accidental discharges, lost weapons in a school.
Overall you'd have different problems, not less.

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Originally Posted by TrilliumLT

Its a sad state of affairs if you have to defend yourself in your own Country.

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Ever heard the story of Cain and Abel?

Been happening ever since.

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Originally Posted by scap99

Rights are granted by the Creator. Not subject to the whims of current political landscape, be it war or otherwise.

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Did he tell you personally which rights you have?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Did he tell you personally which rights you have?

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Oh NO!! Here we go!

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Did he tell you personally which rights you have?

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Self-evident isn't clear enough?

Well if I apply your logic this guy use his rights 26 times. Since 20 was not enough he keep going... I guess he is also part of your statement. Correct? He is not different from anyone else who born with right....

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Originally Posted by scap99

I was responding to Proximus, who implied rights were dynamic rather than static.

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Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

I don't usually get involved in these kinds of discussions, but as an actual teacher (and gun owner), I think I need to correct some misconceptions here. Frankly, I get tired of hearing simplistic, uninformed opinions about how to fix education from people who haven't been in a classroom in decades; no offense, gentlemen, it's just a touchy issue for me. I teach 90 seniors a day in a very big suburban high school (just like Columbine, really). Many are bigger (and certainly tougher) than me, which I guess is irrelevant when some nut-job brings a gun into the equation. I'm not saying I know what "the answer" is; in any case, out here in the real world these simplistic platitudes never solve ANY of our country's complex and overwhelming problems...

What I DO know is that if you arm teachers, then they are no longer trusted teachers who have earned a child's respect, but more like prison wardens. Arm teachers, and that hard-earned, often grudgingly-given cooperation will change (especially from teenagers), I guarantee you, into a type of rebellious submission based on fear. I can just hear a student saying: "What are you going to do, shoot me?"

The teacher/student relationship is a complex, ever-changing negotiation based on many subtle factors. Speaking from experience (my 1st 3 years in a very tough school), a teacher who tries to play King of the Hill and runs a class based on fear will rarely if ever be successful. Years ago, after reading (and teaching) Sue Monk Kidd's The Secret Life of Bees, I completely changed the way I manage a classroom (and deal with other people) based on a quote from that book which changed my life: "When you really need something from someone, find a way to have that person give it to you." My discipline problems have almost dropped to nothing since. Dedicated, professional teachers spend years gaining classroom management experience and honing their "reps" as the real deal. In my case (and with most teachers I know), students' grudging respect for me is based on them knowing that I am that "real deal" who knows and loves his subject, is ALWAYS honest and fair (but firm) with them, and am enthusiastically dedicated to their success. Most of my colleagues work this way, and I feel that our school's relative lack of discipline issues (in the type of school that should be overwhelmed by them!) is a direct result of that philosophy. You don't need a degree in psychology to know intuitively that a gun on my hip would negate ALL of that dynamic, and reduce it to that. gun. on. my. hip.

I am not a cop, don't try to make me one! God help me, if this ever happens, I am done teaching. I know from discussing this with my colleagues that many great, conscientious teachers would also refuse to do this. I say that as someone who is a pretty good shot, and who would (I hope) be able to perform under fire if I actually were armed-ironic, isn't it? I'm just certain it would end education as we currently know it, and change it into something I wouldn't want to be a part of...

I know this stance doesn't take us one iota closer to solving the problem of school shootings, but I just think that my favorite on-line community of well-intentioned, thoughtful, and compassionate gentlemen needs to hear from teachers how wrong-headed this line of thinking is. Like many of you, I have watched the story unfolding in horror, thinking of my own boys who used to attend the excellent (and safe?) elementary school down the street.

Thanks for indulging the long post, guys, and I hope I didn't offend. I just got my feathers ruffled about a subject that is very important to me personally. May the residents of NewTown, CT find peace and grace, if possible, this Christmas. Aaron

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Those who have called for arming teachers have simply done so without any specifics of implementation. As you know, the devil is in the details. As it is now, teachers have NO CHOICE in the matter. I don't think anyone is suggesting that teachers be given no choice but to be armed. No, teachers aren't cops, but they are supposed to be CITIZENS FIRST, just like every other American, whether they be businessman, teacher, soldier or statesman. A CITIZEN, BY DEFINITION, IS ARMED. Anything less is a "subject". This does not mean you deliver lectures with an AR-15 at port arms. It means that you, like every Citizen, have the right and DUTY to maintain a means to RESPOND. This should not be a high-profile thing - on the contrary, it's much more effective and far less intrusive if the students NEVER see it, but are taught that it's an element of Citizenship, just like voting and jury duty. Just like the right and duty to vote, a Citizen has the right and duty to keep and bear arms. Not every teacher will choose to take on this level of responsibility, but some will, (such as my wife who has been teaching for 17 years, and has always had a small safe in her classroom for candy money, etc.) and all it takes to stop an active-shooter scenario is ONE responsible Citizen. In reality, my wife could have kept a full-size 1911 in that safe in her classroom for the last 17 years, and NO ONE WOULD EVER KNOW. There's no rational reason why this couldn't be a LEGAL reality.

The classroom dynamic you refer to is a direct result of this entire skewed sense of normalcy that we have now, which is a direct result of the NFA in 1938. Prior to that, kids would take their .22's to school and nobody thought anything of it. We teach 1st graders to look both ways before crossing the street because cars are an acknowledged and accepted reality, but we don't teach the safe and effective handling of firearms in schools. Why not? It's a 100 yr. old technology, and it's not all that difficult, but the shift of the population to urban centers has resulted in too many people who have been brainwashed with this stigma about firearms since 1938. This is just a complex definition of what amounts to nothing more than ignorance-based fear.

These other countries where the laws reflect the socialist thinking and vice-versa are not a good model for the U.S., but the encroachment of this sort of thinking has served to split our political landscape in half, with a divisiveness like never before. The NFA, the current political landscape and the evolution of fear and spreading misinformation and ignorance about what firearms can and can't do are just a part of the larger disassociated social sense and lack of moral values that are just pressure-cooked in the urban centers. There are still many places in the country where neighbors help each other pull stumps and build barns, and they'll defend each others' property when called upon as well. They have guns, they've always had guns, and they don't think anything much about it except when some politician tries to say that gun ownership or the availability of guns is the problem. No, PEOPLE and PARENTS are the problem, and teachers are on the front lines of dealing with that part of it.

As in my last post, there are initiatives that CAN improve security in schools that CAN work before it ever comes down to an armed teacher. These are solutions that can be developed locally, by school districts and funded by the state. (Congress can sit up there on the Hill and be as stupid and ineffectual as ever, and the President can keep his crocodile tears and socialist policies to himself.) Teachers have the ear of their administration and especially the Principal and AP's down there in their own school office much more than they have the ear of their legislators. My recommendation is for teachers to consider the fact that the "classroom tactic" of taking things away from everybody because of the abuses of the few is not the right way to solve all problems (heresy, I know). This is necessarily going to run across the grain of the typical educator culture, but that's what good corporate managers do when they're losing money and can't figure out why. They form diagonal committees that cross the cultural boundaries within their organization, recognizing that if they keep doing things the way they've always done, they're going to keep losing money the same way they have been.

This is about unshackling and empowering those with the inclination and the means to defend themselves and others, as every Citizen should, ideally.

Quick Question. You have the right to bear arms but is it a right to have the ammo?
Ill stir the pot alittle.

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Originally Posted by MickR

I agree with your opinion, and without actually trying to argue with you here, as you may not have had this tidbit of news down your way, in (unintentional) support of the 'Crims will always get guns' line. Recently we had an incident here, where a man walked up to a protective service officer (They stand out the front of court houses and also act as personal protection agents for dignitaries and such amongst other things), pulled out a claw hammer and clubbed the Officer down to the ground, took the officers gun and decamped. The offender was found a kilometre away, having taken his own life. It could have been so much worse.
As a parent, I really feel for the loss of those young lives, but the focus seems to be on the tool used to take those lives, rather than the 'Tool' who took them, and what is worse still, is that the coward took his own life, denying those grieving parents any sense of justice. It makes me sick at heart that people can do this sort of thing to each other.


Mick

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Yeah, hammers are used a lot in SA these days, esp in home invasions. I think you could kill less people with a hammer than a gun, though. Also, to counter my OWN argument, and also to add support to the stupid bikie law debate, I'm quite aware that bikies and otyher gangs make their OWN guns, they don't need to buy them; they manufacture them. I'd just be quite horrified and scared to think everyone in my street had a gun, and to be honest I think they townsfolk would be pretty scared to think I had a gun, I have anger management issues...

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Did he tell you personally which rights you have?

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My opinion is no-one is born with rights. Having 'rights' in quite a new concept...

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Did he tell you personally which rights you have?

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Yes, in the Divinely-inspired U.S. Declaration of Independence, where it states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness..."

The 2nd Amendment to our Constitution is what follows, in that if one has a right to Life, endowed by the Creator, then the Right and inclination to defend one's life comes from the same source. Our courts have upheld this notion.

There are plenty of other countries where this is not the case, so there are plenty of choices for those who would rather be subjects instead of carrying the responsibility, duty, equality and freedoms associated with true Citizenship. Even here, a person has to TAKE and secure these things to themselves, because the encroachment of government oppression is ever present. It is the natural tendency of ALL governments to overreach and oppress, and that's why the Founders of this country wrote these protections into our system.

People in the USA have guns to protect themselves against their government? Is that it? Just ignore me, I'm being silly...

Furcifer,
Sorry I took this out from your context but you are kidding me? You really stand behind statement "socialist thinking and vice-versa". Well in this case all of European and öther countries "are bunch of socialist idiots. Thank you for wake up call. Sorry I have enough. My grandmother live in house which is older that USA. If I tell you that socialism is perfectly implemented in USA, you will probably do not believe me... And moderator, yes please you can ban me or remove this post but I will not agree with Furcifer statement.

It is time to cool down. Time to hone 20 razors.

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Originally Posted by Furcifer

These other countries where the laws reflect the socialist thinking and vice-versa are not a good model for the U.S., but the encroachment of this sort of thinking has served to split our political landscape in half, with a divisiveness like never before.
No, PEOPLE and PARENTS are the problem, and teachers are on the front lines of dealing with that part of it.
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Originally Posted by proximus26

Who said this person was ill minded? Media? I guess they will tell what ever fit best for what ever side they represent and sheep will have to agree without thinking twice...

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I guess that where I don't think like other's... ANYONE that would do something as such, would have to be ILL MINDED... Wouldn't you think? Or I guess that is the actions of a SOUND Minded Person...

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Originally Posted by proximus26

Well if I apply your logic this guy use his rights 26 times. Since 20 was not enough he keep going... I guess he is also part of your statement. Correct? He is not different from anyone else who born with right....

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You have no inherent right to just kill someone in cold blood but thanks for playing along. ;)

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Originally Posted by scap99

We are all born with the right to defend ourselves.
No matter the tool of the day.

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I think I said that too...

I find it quite humorus that you guys just can't seem to understand Our American rights,, just like I explained to Sailor I doubt you ever will or even can comprehend how ingrained our Rights our to us..
To us it is an alien concept that you even question it...

We have the Right to defend ourselves, in this country we have the the right to do so with a gun. as long as we retain our rights...
Until the Bill of Rights is overturned that is the way it is, trying to overturn that right or any other could very well split this country into pieces... or worse

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Originally Posted by TrilliumLT

Quick Question. You have the right to bear arms but is it a right to have the ammo?
Ill stir the pot alittle.

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I make my own.

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Originally Posted by BobH

I think the point Sailor is/was trying to make is that no matter where you happen to live the question that should be foremost is why people they can do these kinds of despicable acts. That has nothing to do with the method of killing. I also think Sailor knows the difference between a right and a privilege by choosing to separate them with an "or" as in innocent or guilty. That makes them two entirely different things.

Not much to understand about Americans right to have guns, it is pretty plain. It is also pretty plain that you have to get past the tunnel vision of concentrating on guns as an issue and get to the root causes of the abuse of that right. We still have trouble with that concept and the the ownership of guns here is a privilege. I would say it being a right or privilege has little bearing on whether people will abuse it.

Bob

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Bob, does the society lose the privilege at some time if it's abused? I know that's collective punishment, a bit like taking the TV away from the entire family because one kid is watching too much (poor analogy I know) but where is that line which can be crossed for 'someone' to say "Right, that's it, you can't be trusted any more, give me the guns". I know that's a rather paternal idea, but I'm sort of playing with the idea that I'm the wise old emperor overlord chief type guy. I think if I were such an entity I would have got a bit stern with my stupid citizens by now... :-)

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Originally Posted by TrilliumLT

Its a sad state of affairs if you have to defend yourself in your own Country.

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I guess we should close the borders... keep some of the population down...

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

People in the USA have guns to protect themselves against their government? Is that it? Just ignore me, I'm being silly...

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Guns protect my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. No matter if the threat is a gang banger or jack booted thug.

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Originally Posted by scap99

Ever heard the story of Cain and Abel?

Been happening ever since.

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Give me a jaw of an ASS, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of those...

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Bob, does the society lose the privilege at some time if it's abused? I know that's collective punishment, a bit like taking the TV away from the entire family because one kid is watching too much (poor analogy I know) but where is that line which can be crossed for 'someone' to say "Right, that's it, you can't be trusted any more, give me the guns". I know that's a rather paternal idea, but I'm sort of playing with the idea that I'm the wise old emperor overlord chief type guy. I think if I were such an entity I would have got a bit stern with my stupid citizens by now... :-)

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Rights and privileges are two different creatures.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I find it quite humorus that you guys just can't understand Our American rights,, just like I explained to Sailor I doubt you ever will or even can comprehend how ingrained our Rights our to us..
To us it is an alien concept that you even question it...

We have the Right to defend ourselves, in this country we have the the right to do so with a gun. as long as we retain our rights...

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Do rights sometimes make people a little bolder and more arrogant than they should be? Sometimes do we need to show some humility?

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Originally Posted by NoseWarmer

Give me a jaw of an ASS, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of those...

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Pretty sure you brought up the Cain And Abel story earlier. I hope you don't mind that I brought it up again.

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Do rights sometimes make people a little bolder and more arrogant than they should be? Sometimes do we need to show some humility?

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No rights are inanimate like guns.
Ego on the other hand makes people do crazy things.

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Yeah, hammers are used a lot in SA these days, esp in home invasions. I think you could kill less people with a hammer than a gun, though.

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Carl, It just takes a little longer...

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Originally Posted by proximus26

It is time to cool down. Time to hone 20 razors.

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So in a heated debate you choose to pick up a weapon?

In this case looks like we are different humans and this guy used his right all the way. So you are right. We should not question anything at all. Just waiting on another killing spree. Hope it will never happen in my son school as for now ""RIGHT"" allows to kill my son. In UK in this last year 35 people die from gun shooting... Not sure what are statistics in USA but Glen you are right. It is not fair on my said to question your rights but so happen they become mine too and I don`t like them at all. I will give them up in second to save this dead kids and save my family. I DON GET IT. Sorry, this is my last post. This whole discussion will not change anything as people do not want to change.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I find it quite humorus that you guys just can't understand Our American rights,, just like I explained to Sailor I doubt you ever will or even can comprehend how ingrained our Rights our to us..
To us it is an alien concept that you even question it...

We have the Right to defend ourselves, in this country we have the the right to do so with a gun. as long as we retain our rights...

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Originally Posted by scap99

Guns protect my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. No matter if the threat is a gang banger or jack booted thug.

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Oh well, I'm a bit of a hippy at heart, which is sort of why I left the army after ten years; it certainly had a lot to do with it. I'm quite idealistic, I just want to sit around in the meadows making daisy chains and smoking dope and eating fruit. Then again the other 1/2 of me would quite relish a post apocalyptic scenario where I take to the hills with my band of loyal partisans and wreak havoc on the invaders. Like I said in the other discussion we all had on this a few months ago, sadly, we're having a few on this subject lately, I just can't envisage a wild west shoot out type scenario of people (kids???) protecting themselves from the assault...

Clearly I'm ignorant of life where these things happen, so really I shouldn't really be commenting on your society or government. Feel free to criticise my society and my 'government' by the way, they are a bunch of morons and quite embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by proximus26

In this case looks like we are different humans and this guy used his right all the way. So you are right. We should not question anything at all. Just waiting on another killing spree. Hope it will never happen in my son school as for now ""RIGHT"" allows to kill my son. In UK in this last year 35 people die from gun shooting... Not sure what are statistics in USA but Glen you are right. It is not fair on my said to question your rights but so happen they become mine too and I don`t like them at all. I will give them up in second to save this dead kids and save my family. I DON GET IT. Sorry, this is my last post. This whole discussion will not change anything as people do not want to change.

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What part of he broke every gun law there is and he did not have the right to own a gun do you NOT understand ?????

You are arguing from the heart, which is great but not accurate

As for stats be careful there as I can rattle them off at will, and they land on the Pro-gun side every single time

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Originally Posted by proximus26

I will give them up in second...

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There are several countries that would be willing to take them...

My heart goes out to the families of the deceased. I will continue to support the NRA, regardless if I agree with everything they do or not. I don't own a gun. But I'll forever do my best, to keep the option on the table.

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Originally Posted by proximus26

In this case looks like we are different humans and this guy used his right all the way. So you are right. We should not question anything at all. Just waiting on another killing spree. Hope it will never happen in my son school as for now ""RIGHT"" allows to kill my son. In UK in this last year 35 people die from gun shooting... Not sure what are statistics in USA but Glen you are right. It is not fair on my said to question your rights but so happen they become mine too and I don`t like them at all. I will give them up in second to save this dead kids and save my family. I DON GET IT. Sorry, this is my last post. This whole discussion will not change anything as people do not want to change.

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There is no right to kill in cold blood. You've wasted your time, twice, on a false assumption.

what you will see folks in the next year,is an amendment to the amendment.
people who expouse there so called rights,will be cast aside as morons as to what they deem proper,this no longer fits in american society as it is today.
Yesterdays carnage will be the straw that brakes the camels back.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I find it quite humorus that you guys just can't seem to understand Our American rights,, just like I explained to Sailor I doubt you ever will or even can comprehend how ingrained our Rights our to us..
To us it is an alien concept that you even question it...

We have the Right to defend ourselves, in this country we have the the right to do so with a gun. as long as we retain our rights...
Until the Bill of Rights is overturned that is the way it is, trying to overturn that right or any other could very well split this country into pieces... or worse

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I have begun to understand this. What Americans don't really follow though, is that you still don't have the right to kill someone.
There is something uncivilized about that concept. Every single conversation I have had with an American either in person, or on here, regarding the right to defend yourself using guns ... has ended with the American basically saying they have to do that because the country is in ruins.
Doesn't that just make you think you need to get rid of those sorry excuse of leaders? I would never arm myself against another human.
Against animals, say if I lived in BFE, or the plains in Alaska, yes I would arm myself because I am not going down to a bear.
A human is another matter, I would rather die than kill, and it saddens me that others don't feel the same.
As in the other thread, where I stated I believe proficiency in self defense is better than using a firearm, I stand by that firmly.
Take away firearms and firearms related crime will drop to almost nil. Until that is understood and adopted nothing will change.
Would you guys who have guns give them up to never have this happen again? I would give anything to prevent these atrocities.
To those who talk about bombs etc, a bomb large enough to kill 20 people would probably be spotted in the making
Somebody would have to buy a lot of "odd" things that would raise an alarm, also they have to make it, which could see the end of them too.
To Glen, Just because your rights are deeply ingrained, that doesn't mean changing them isn't a good thing. It means you will fight to keep them.
Good luck with that because eventually, if this sort of thing keeps happening, they will be changed. Eventually someone with some sense will preside over the USA and define what the right to bear arms actually means in a modern era. The bill of rights is something that really needs looking at by the politicians, and the people of America. Things change, Britain is no longer going to take the USA ... The bill of rights needs amending.

If you have the right to bear arms and create a militia, only the militia should be allowed to bear arms, they should be regulated and everybody should know who those people are.

To the people who say something along the lines of "well the killer broke the rules already, more rules won't help".
Criminalize guns. There is a long list of people who own them, where they live, the Gov't could find the firearms owners, and give them a period of grace to disarm themselves before they became fugitives. If what you say is true you would all follow the laws and give your firearms up anyway, no problem. Then the budget for the police could be shifted towards changing the philosophy of the broken part of society. There would be excess budget after firearms was criminalized since there would be lower crime rates after the initial spike.

To everybody who says this is a pipe dream or words to that effect just take a look at the UK. This was achieved. Atrocities like this happen rarely. The last being (if I am correct) the 80's.

If I made spelling errors etc, I apologise, I am tired.

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Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

I have begun to understand this. What Americans don't really follow though, is that you still don't have the right to kill someone.
There is something uncivilized about that concept. Every single conversation I have had with an American either in person, or on here, regarding the right to defend yourself using guns ... has ended with the American basically saying they have to do that because the country is in ruins.
Doesn't that just make you think you need to get rid of those sorry excuse of leaders? I would never arm myself against another human.
Against animals, say if I lived in BFE, or the plains in Alaska, yes I would arm myself because I am not going down to a bear.
A human is another matter, I would rather die than kill, and it saddens me that others don't feel the same.
As in the other thread, where I stated I believe proficiency in self defense is better than using a firearm, I stand by that firmly.
Take away firearms and firearms related crime will drop to almost nil. Until that is understood and adopted nothing will change.
Would you guys who have guns give them up to never have this happen again? I would give anything to prevent these atrocities.
To those who talk about bombs etc, a bomb large enough to kill 20 people would probably be spotted in the making
Somebody would have to buy a lot of "odd" things that would raise an alarm, also they have to make it, which could see the end of them too.
To Glen, Just because your rights are deeply ingrained, that doesn't mean changing them isn't a good thing. It means you will fight to keep them.
Good luck with that because eventually, if this sort of thing keeps happening, they will be changed. Eventually someone with some sense will preside over the USA and define what the right to bear arms actually means in a modern era.

If you have the right to bear arms and create a militia, only the militia should be allowed to bear arms, they should be regulated and everybody should know who those people are.

To the people who say something along the lines of "well they broke the rules already, more rules won't help".
Criminalize guns. There is a long list of people who own them, where they live, the Gov't could find the firearms owners, and give them a period of grace to disarm themselves before they became fugitives. If what you say is true you would all follow the laws and give your firearms up anyway, no problem. Then the budget for the police could be shifted towards changing the philosophy of the broken part of society. There would be excess budget after firearms was criminalized since there would be lower crime rates after the initial spike.

To everybody who says this is a pipe dream or words to that effect just take a look at the UK. This was achieved. Atrocities like this happen rarely. The last being (if I am correct) the 80's.

If I made spelling errors etc, I apologise, I am tired.

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Another (K) Carl thought much like you, his last name however was Marx :(

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

what you will see folks in the next year,is an amendment to the amendment.
people who expouse there so called rights,will be cast aside as morons as to what they deem proper,this no longer fits in american society as it is today.
Yesterdays carnage will be the straw that brakes the camels back.

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Yes because of well written and intelligent thought processes like that :rofl2:

Whoa, slow that Camel down with those brakes, he might be hiding an Assault weopen behind one of his humps :(

Bet you're sorry you rushed to open this thread now huh ??? stepped right up on those dead kids bodies to stand on your soap box and espouse your viewpoint... shameful

Has anyone changed there original position as a result of this thread yet ? Aw shucks !

Well anyway, I was thinking about the movie Men In Black. The spaceship crash lands in the field and the farmer comes out with his double shotgun. The alien/bug says, "Throw your weapon into the crater." The farmer responds with, "You can have my gun when you take it from my cold dead fingers." The alien says, "That is acceptable." and kills him. Kind of humorous moment in the film ..... IMHO.