Thread: Early Joseph Elliot

Originally Posted by RezDog

Nice work. Great save on those scales. Bone is one of the materials that you can stain and get some antique look but it never really is the same as the actual antique look. I suspect that they are bovine bone due to the amount of speckling in them.

I have often wondered about Elliot dates and production. I have a few with no royal warrant and one with a WR royal warrant and I have always wondered why they were not all produced with the warrant. It seems clear that in the middle somewhere there were many with no warrant. Did Elliot have a warrant and loose it and then get it back or is there some reason they would have a royal warrant and not mark it on their products.

I think you mean royal cypher not warrant. The cypher was just a sign of the monarch reigning at the time. Royal warrants of appointment have been issued for centuries to tradespeople who supply goods or services to a royal court or certain royal personages. Warrants granted by members of the British royal family usually include the phrase "By Appointment to…" followed by the title and name of the royal customer, and then what goods are provided; no other details of what is supplied may be given.
Joseph Elliot Sr. 1760 - 1830. He had 10 sons. The first directory listing was in 1822 based in Sambourne Square, Edward Street. 3 years later the firm relocated to it's Hollis Croft address. By 1833 Joseph and been joined by John Elliot (possibly his brother). The partnership lasted until 1950. In 1856 he was joined by this son Joseph Edwin Elliot (1829 - 1899) and the firm became Joseph Elliot and Son. He acquired a number of trade marks. One of which was the set square-compass and WOLF marks of John Barber.

I think the stamps on Sheffie razors indicate a Royal Warrant granted and were not Royal Cyphers. Royal Cyphers appear to be something else again and used differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_cypher

My guess would be that the Royal Warrant was used during the reign/lifetime of that particular King or Queen. If the succeeding King or Queen did not grant a Royal Warrant to that firm then that stamp was omitted.

It is times like this that Neil Miller's help is sorely missed in clarifying these things.

Bob

Awesome job on that Elliot!

very Nice work

An excellent and well thought-out work.
Handle material is exactly the same with the style and shape of the blade.
Support eagle in very handy

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I do not believe the royal cypher indicates a royal warrant. They would not have just handed them out to so many cutlers in Sheffield. Even today there is a long process to be granted one and they were only good for a finite number of years.

Originally Posted by karlej

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I do not believe the royal cypher indicates a royal warrant. They would not have just handed them out to so many cutlers in Sheffield. Even today there is a long process to be granted one and they were only good for a finite number of years.

No, the Royal Cypher is not a guarantee that the maker has a Royal Warrant as there were cheaters and fraudsters. There is a likelihood that it indicates a Royal Warrant if I read the link correctly.

This is how it works today http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Sy...lwarrants.aspx . Looks like once you are accepted for a Royal Warrant it is granted for a 5 year period, then reviewed and extended if it is found that your product/services still meet the standard.

Who knows what the rules were when the Sheffie razors were produced. They could have been more lax and so could have been the enforcement of those rules.

Currently there appears to be about 1100 Royal Warrant holders. I think in the hayday of straight razor use a fair number of Sheffie makers could have held a Royal Warrant at one time or another.

In any event it is up for interpretation and clear as mud as far as I can see. Agreeing to disagree is pretty normal under those circumstances.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

I think the stamps on Sheffie razors indicate a Royal Warrant granted and were not Royal Cyphers. Royal Cyphers appear to be something else again and used differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_cypher

My guess would be that the Royal Warrant was used during the reign/lifetime of that particular King or Queen. If the succeeding King or Queen did not grant a Royal Warrant to that firm then that stamp was omitted.

It is times like this that Neil Miller's help is sorely missed in clarifying these things.

Bob

What is your reference that the crown mark on the razor with the monarch's initials indicates a royal warrant?
In the 'Standard Guide to Razors' by Roy Richie & Ron Stewart it states markers started adding the sign of the monarch on the razors and gives examples of each. The mark can obviously be used to help date the razor.
I can find no record of a royal warrant being granted to Joseph Elliot. Joseph Rogers for instance did have a royal warrant. It's first was granted by King George IV in 1822 and stamped on their blades is something like 'Cutlers to their majesties'.

Originally Posted by karlej

What is your reference that the crown mark on the razor with the monarch's initials indicates a royal warrant?
In the 'Standard Guide to Razors' by Roy Richie & Ron Stewart it states markers started adding the sign of the monarch on the razors and gives examples of each. The mark can obviously be used to help date the razor.
I can find no record of a royal warrant being granted to Joseph Elliot. Joseph Rogers for instance did have a royal warrant. It's first was granted by King George IV in 1822 and stamped on their blades is something like 'Cutlers to their majesties'.

Sorry, no reference other than Royal Markings | Swords and Knives | David Atkinson which seems to indicate that a crown with an initial followed by R usually indicated a maker had a Royal Warrant. They also refer to that as a Royal Cypher so I stand corrected there. The Royal Cyphers that I pictured were/are much more elaborate so there being limited space on a razor for stamping a simplified version was used. The difference between G crown R and V crown R illustrations in the link.

In the link it also states that the Royal warrant remains even after that monarch has died, which I thought it did not. That would make dating a razor by such Royal Warrant stamping a bit iffy as companies could and did last through several Monarchs reigns.

Yes, that is a good point about "Cutlers to their Majesties" stamping. So it may well be that if it does not have that stamping also it may not have a Royal Warrant or not.

Bob

If it makes any difference I was referring to the W crown R, and V crown R. Those I have on Joseph Elliot razors. O will take pictures next month when I get home from work if anyone needs to see them. For clarification those are called a Royal Cypher and not a warrant then. I stand corrected on that.