Thread: Coffee or Tea

Originally Posted by pjrage

I assume you call it charbucks because you think the coffee tastes burnt? That's interesting, because little old me not really knowing my coffee very well (yet?) thinks the same thing. I really don't like their coffee, and it seriously tastes burnt to me. It's due to over roasting the beans?

Exactly! I once used this term when talking to a Papua New Guinea grower. He said, "That's what we call them. They burn the hell out of our beans!"

Here are the degrees of roast from lightest to darkest

Cinnamon - tends to be sour, herbal (in a bad way) few roast this light

City-this is the roast that people use for critical evaluation of coffee. It tends to have the most origin character, but some good flavors may be underdeveloped at this point.

City+ not really an official roast level. It is really a slightly darker city roast. Here the flavors are more fully developed than at a true city roast. This is my favorite level for coffees with "high" notes. Lime, lemon, cherry, blueberry, etc. Certain coffees tend to do well at this roast Ethiopians (Harrar, Sidamo, Yirgacheffe), Yemeni and others.

Full City - different people define this differently. I have ordered city roasted coffee from some roasters that roast to order and gotten coffee roasted way too dark. They didn't get a second order from me. this is a medium roast. There really should be no oil on the outside of the bean. This roast should have a medium body and you can start to get notes of chocolate and caramel here (providing you are roasting the right bean. Roasting to this level can tame some wild notes that may have been overbearing in a lighter roast.

Full City+ again this is not a conventional term. I use it to describe a slightly darker Full City roast. A lot of coffees have their "sweet spot" here. Particularly the well balanced Central American coffees and some South American

Vienna is a slightly darker roast. We are starting to get into Starbucks land. I roast very few coffees this dark. This is where roast flavors begin to overshadow bean flavors. It is a useful roast for specific purposes like espresso, espresso blends, and other blends. This is a roast that, if done right, will really emphasize the sweetness and body. You want that as a component of some blends and some styles of espresso. There are certain beans that tend to do well with this kind of roast - Brazil, Sumatran. Java. and other Indonesians. There is oil here say up to 50%.

French - here we find much of Starbucks line up. This is where roast really begins to dominate and you have lost much of the origin flavor. Beans are oily. This is again useful in blends (usually "morning" blends) and darker styles of espresso.

Vienna and French can be done well and be a pleasant note in a blend. You have to start with a bold (almost out of balance) coffee for it to have any origin character when you are roasting this dark. Those are the same coffees I like lighter to appreciate those soaring high notes.

Spanish = burnt

Originally Posted by Pyment

Here are the degrees of roast from lightest to darkest

That's a lot of options. Silly question - how do you know which stage you've reached during the roasting? From what I remember reading, some people have trouble recognising the "second crack" let alone fine tuning the roast to the degree you mention. Is it down to timing, or can you check visually?

Originally Posted by Rajagra

That's a lot of options. Silly question - how do you know which stage you've reached during the roasting? From what I remember reading, some people have trouble recognising the "second crack" let alone fine tuning the roast to the degree you mention. Is it down to timing, or can you check visually?

That depends on your roaster.

It's nice if you have a temp readout, but the less complex roasters don't have this. However home roasters are a resourceful lot. There isn't a commercial roaster that hasn't been "hacked". One of the common hacks is to sneak a thermocouple into the bean mass.

If you have a temp readout, you can figure what temp each level of roast corresponds to. First crack occurs about 395-404 F, city would be just above that. There is a temp for each roast level.

I have never been much of a hacker. So, I learned to roast with my senses. I listen for the cracks. City is right after 1st crack completes. Full City + is just a few snaps into 2nd crack. There are typical smells for some of the stages. I couldn't really describe it, but I know what the smell is like just before the cracks. There is smoke right at fullcity that increases as you get into second crack. Then there are color changes for each degree of roast. Of course the color changes don't hold up for every bean. For instance, Sumatrans will often appear lighter than their degree of roast. As you learn your roaster, you get a feel for where the different degrees of roast occur. I started with an iRoast but when I upgraded some of the roasting was different. The colors, cracks, and smells are the same, but the timing, profiles, and adjusting the roaster has to be relearned. Some skills transfer, some don't.

Often the recommendation is to take a bean that has a fairly large "sweet spot". Usually a Papua New Guinea or one of the more robust centrals (a Nicaraguan or a Guatemalan) and for the first roast, take it right through second crack. That helps you learn how a bean progresses through the roasting process and observe the sensory changes as you go. After that you can try to hit various degrees of roast so you know how to do that.

I prefer coffee, nice and strong, the way they serve it at Fourbucks. But I also enjoy a good cup of tea. as Jean-Luc would say, "Earl Gray. Hot."

So, can I expect that if I find Starbucks coffee to taste burnt, that I will find some/most Vienna and all French roasts to also taste burnt?

Or is starbucks doing something else too that is making it taste worse?

This is a stock photo of the model roaster I have.



It's built like a tank and weighs about 150 lbs. It's a trip roasting on this. I don't have a lot of controls to play with, I can control the ramp with a combination of turning one or both of the elements on or off. I regulate air speed with a can over the exhaust. I had to relearn all my temps in Celsius too. I had to reset the bean temp prob as when the machine came it was improperly placed. Eventually, I figured out I had a 220 V element when the machine is 110v.

After all that, it roasts like a champ. I was able to get my roasts down to 12-15 mins and get a little control over the ramp. I can now slow it when it is going through Caramelization or malliard and Strecker reactions to enhance sweetness and varietal character.

The only thing I would change is I would rather have a gas version than electric. There is less lag time between adjustments and effect with gas heat. I am learning to compensate for the lag time. But this is a completely different way of roasting than my prior roaster. Conductive heat is MUCH more important than my prior roasters which were mainly convective. Considering the deal I got on this, I am pleased as punch.

Anyone know where I can get food grade high temp grease?

Originally Posted by leadduck

I prefer coffee, nice and strong, the way they serve it at Fourbucks. But I also enjoy a good cup of tea. as Jean-Luc would say, "Earl Gray. Hot."

Summer's coming. Earl Gray also makes an excellent iced tea!

Any roasting I have done has been in the oven. You can get a good visual that way if you have a decent oven light. When I worked in North Beach we had the huge roaster in the back - it had a little drawer you could pull out which would catch a few beans to check. That was pretty cool. We would line up the beans in a sort of darkening rainbow for the new hires to show what the roasts looked like.

Originally Posted by Pyment

City-this is the roast that people use for critical evaluation of coffee. It tends to have the most origin character, but some good flavors may be underdeveloped at this point.

If you home roast (or even professionally roast) coffee beans then you know that coffee goes through two very distinct stages. The first stage is the first crack. As the bean heats up it turns from the pale green you see when you buy it to a grassy yellow. As the bean continues to heat up it starts to develop a brown raosting color. Just past this the bean starts to the first crack. It actually sounds like popcorn popping. This caused by the water vapor pushing through the bean and escaping. Right after the cracking it is at the City roast level.

Originally Posted by Pyment

City+ not really an official roast level. It is really a slightly darker city roast. Here the flavors are more fully developed than at a true city roast. This is my favorite level for coffees with "high" notes. Lime, lemon, cherry, blueberry, etc. Certain coffees tend to do well at this roast Ethiopians (Harrar, Sidamo, Yirgacheffe), Yemeni and others.

City+ is a bit past the city roast stage. The oils haven't started to come to the surface, but the colors are turning a darker brown. A goodly number of coffees are very good at this roast level. Fruity and floral flavors and scents are most prominent. I have a few African coffes that exhibit prevalent strawberry and blueberry notes at City+. Central American coffees are best at the roast (to my taste anyway).

Originally Posted by Pyment

Full City - different people define this differently. I have ordered city roasted coffee from some roasters that roast to order and gotten coffee roasted way too dark. They didn't get a second order from me. this is a medium roast. There really should be no oil on the outside of the bean. This roast should have a medium body and you can start to get notes of chocolate and caramel here (providing you are roasting the right bean. Roasting to this level can tame some wild notes that may have been overbearing in a lighter roast.

Full City is where the browns are rich and deep, and the oils are just beginning to surface. Floral and fruity flavors begin to drop off, and cocoa and chocolate flavors begin to come to the forefront. However, the second crack has not quite begun.

Originally Posted by Pyment

Full City+ again this is not a conventional term. I use it to describe a slightly darker Full City roast. A lot of coffees have their "sweet spot" here. Particularly the well balanced Central American coffees and some South American.

Full City+ is where the second crack begins (the other distinct stage). Although still audible the second crack is not as pronounced as the first crack. The beans have developed a deep, dark brown. Rich chocolate, caramel flavors are fully developed by now. And the oils are very prevalent on the bean surface. Indonesian coffees (such as Sumatra) are best at this roast level, or even just past the second crack.

I have ended my part of the tutorial here because I don't roast past the above stages as these are where I like my coffees. If you haven't tried it, then I beseech you to try home roasting. It doesn't take a lot of expensive equipment to do so. My first roaster was an air popcorn popper. You will also need a grinder. An inexpensive grinder will do just fine. When you home roast you have total control over not only the roast level, but the bean you roast. I get my supplies from www.sweetmarias.com There are other places that sell roasting equipment and green bean as well.

Thanks Dan.

I will only roast past FC+ as part of a blend. Sometimes the darker roasts make a good accent note in blends.

I have 2 places I get greens. Garry Burman is a friend and does a pretty decent job with greens.

Then there is the Green Coffee Buying Club. We started about a year and 1/2 ago with 4 guys. Now we are international with about a thousand members.

I feel funny about posting s link here, but if you Google it, you should find your way there.