Thread: If you were going to make a production razor...

Originally Posted by 71L

Good points, but nobody is saying the cheapest option is the only seller. The basic razor could be their bread, adding nicer scales their butter... Some slightly better models their potatoes, and occasional custom pieces their steak. Add in strops, brushes, and skin-care products (soap, pre shave, aftershave) and you get some extra money as well. I think this is exactly how PRC is doing it and they seem to be supporting 3 people pretty well, with a brand new shop and a long waiting list to boot. I know their lowest cost razors in a post here was what got me to their website and then the great feedback from other buyers and low cost made me decide to go ahead and buy to decide for myself... What's that? I can get a much better blade, that suits my fancy for an extra $50-90? Sure. I get a discount on a strop if I order it together? I don't really need another strop, but the price is great and the reviews are even better... Sure! I get the razor and it's fantastic, as advertised, so ordered a second one... And now am keeping my eyes out on their website for one of their customs... So far I'm extremely happy with their products, which I believe I got for a bargain, despite the wait, and they seem to be making a good living, doing what they love. Could it scale up (from them or someone else) to become even cheaper and gain mass appeal? Sure, if the interest and marketing is there.

+1

That is what I would envision someone doing if they got something like this off the ground. Doing different blade tips would be an easy addition. Scales would be an easy upgrade. Different sizes of blades and different grinds would be a bit more work, but you would still reuse 90% of your existing tooling.

Originally Posted by 71L

Good points, but nobody is saying the cheapest option is the only seller. The basic razor could be their bread, adding nicer scales their butter... Some slightly better models their potatoes, and occasional custom pieces their steak. Add in strops, brushes, and skin-care products (soap, pre shave, aftershave) and you get some extra money as well. I think this is exactly how PRC is doing it and they seem to be supporting 3 people pretty well, with a brand new shop and a long waiting list to boot. I know their lowest cost razors in a post here was what got me to their website and then the great feedback from other buyers and low cost made me decide to go ahead and buy to decide for myself... What's that? I can get a much better blade, that suits my fancy for an extra $50-90? Sure. I get a discount on a strop if I order it together? I don't really need another strop, but the price is great and the reviews are even better... Sure! I get the razor and it's fantastic, as advertised, so ordered a second one... And now am keeping my eyes out on their website for one of their customs... So far I'm extremely happy with their products, which I believe I got for a bargain, despite the wait, and they seem to be making a good living, doing what they love. Could it scale up (from them or someone else) to become even cheaper and gain mass appeal? Sure, if the interest and marketing is there.

I have no idea of how PRC is structured at this point but if I remember correctly PRC was (or is) tied in with Portland ADX which from my understanding is a "makers workshop" basically a space where maker share space and tools.
That in it self makes them different them most makers that are going to have to spend money for the equipment.
By no means is that a bad thing but may also explain a bit of their pricing... or maybe not

Originally Posted by cudarunner

My friends in Germany tell me that unlike in the US once people are hired and trained they are kept as employees whether the production goes up or down (Not Laid Off).

So they are reluctant to hire and train the people who are in my opinion the most important employees and that are those who grind the razors. DOVO and others are worried that this resurgence in interest with straight razors will fade and then they will have recruited and trained employees that will no longer be needed.

I can tell you from first-hand experience that this is true. European countries are much more Socialist in this regard, which can be both good and bad. It's a much bigger deal to lay someone off and a company faces negative consequences, such as higher taxes, decreased government credits, and paying more to Social Security for each employee they lay off or fire.

As a matter of fact, my father, who owns a small business in Europe, has a particular employee who has turned out to be extremely lazy and undependable, however it would cost the company more money to lay him off than it does to just keep him. The only recourse one has in this situation is to be mean to him and make work unbearable, hoping he'll quit or will do something that he can be fired for (again, much more difficult in Europe). My father is too nice though and isn't mean to anyone, so the guy has been leaching off my fathers' generosity for several years. The other employees hate him and know there's nothing my father can do because he's too nice, so they find their own ways to let him know he's a leech and not liked, but unless he quits there's nothing they can do either.

Another employee, a secretary, had been stealing from the company for years... My father had suspected for a while, but couldn't do anything about it until he got proof. He did last year and could fire her, proving to the government she was stealing, and thus not facing as many negative repercussions. However, because he's nice he has kept her, just letting her know that they know she was stealing and have every right to fire her, so she better stop. (She is near retirement age and takes care of her granddaughter, so my dad feels bad firing her)

A couple of years ago the company wasn't doing very well due to the economy. Here, they would have laid off everyone except indispensable staff. My dad is too nice and hard-working to lay off anyone, he would have rather the company failed. So he talked to everyone and they (especially my parents) tightened their belts. My parents had to dip into their personal savings and didn't get any paychecks for over a year, but none of the employees missed a single paycheck. They did all kinds of cost cutting and everyone felt it (no lights on in the offices while the sun was out, maximizing every trip and drop of gas in the trucks, etc) but no one was laid off. As a result, now that the economy is better, things are great, but some of their competitors, who did lay off people, are still struggling because they have all those government repercussions for every person laid off, and a few have closed their doors for good.

Originally Posted by MileMarker60

I have no idea of how PRC is structured at this point but if I remember correctly PRC was (or is) tied in with Portland ADX which from my understanding is a "makers workshop" basically a space where maker share space and tools.
That in it self makes them different them most makers that are going to have to spend money for the equipment.
By no means is that a bad thing but may also explain a bit of their pricing... or maybe not

I had a chance to chat with PRC for a few hours last year. They started off in ADX and moved on from there. From what I hear they have just moved up into an even larger workshop. They outsource some off thier work (water cutting and scale cutting) but from what I saw then they had two grinders, a bandsaw, and heat treat equipment (I'm sure I missed a few bits, but it was awhile back).

tl;dr: It is possible to make a living from selling razors.

Now for the details:

1. Blanks: Buy them from Herkenrath. Böker, Dovo, Wacker, Revisor (modern own brand), Aust, Koraat - they all use Herckenrath blanks. The good news is that they are not very expensive. The bad news is that they only make three types (unless you pay them a lot of money). So this €170 Wacker uses the same blank as this €80 Dovo, this €77 Revisor or this €119 Böker.
2. Scales: Well, you will obviously need some. Again, many Solingen makers use the same manufacture for their basic models, and they cost approx €2 per pair. Unfortunately, quality control is abysmal, so you are in fact looking at €4 per pair, because 50% or garbage. You cannot source in France, and those horn scales would be prohibitively expensive. Making your own might be an option, but then you will be looking at €8-15 per pair minimum. Unless you have made large quantities. So, that is an up front investment to keep in mind.
3. Grinder: You will be hard pressed to find one in Germany, but you can have one built. You will be looking at €10,000 if you know exactly where to look, but again that is a well kept secret. Alternatively, you can ask Dovo if they'll sell you one of the CNC robots they use to make their low end razors.
4. Honing: That will be expensive if you want to do it right. Here is where the forum factor kicks in. Dovo (and other) razors have become hit and miss with regards to extreme sharpness. Of course you can shave with them, but they leave room for improvement, so the forum guys with €10k in honing equipment, and a vested commercial interest to use it, will ruin your reputation faster than you can say Gold Dollar unless every single razor you make will be "scary sharp". Which, as we all know, can take anywhere between 10 and 45 minutes. So you were going to aim for 20 razors per day? Better start saving for a lot of Meth, too.

And that is not evening cost of labour. Let alone training. I know that some people swear by "custom razors", but if you take a close look at the "custom" market, you will notice a few things worth thinking about:

1. Grind: These razors are typically wedge type razors. Why? Because the equipment needed to make hollow ground razors is bloody expensive. Also, the production process is more time consuming. But most of all, it needs a fully trained razor maker to make them. Fun fact: Germans did not stop making wedge type razors because they were better, but because they were worse than hollow ground razors. And they made millions of them, so they might just have had a bit more of a clue than Joe Fanboy.
2. Quality control: Apparently, many people think there is something very romantic about custom razors. In reality, each and every one I have seen (including Livi, and high price Wacker razors) were not perfect. Friends made me this. It was days in the making. Days. Not hours.
3. Designs: Yes, you can try making your own blanks. But that will give you quality control issues, and cost too much time. So you will have to source machine made blanks (Germany, or China). But that will limit your design choices. Which is why there are so few different designs coming from Germany these days (and only two from China).

Since I mentioned training, here's another fun fact: The average apprentice spent four years learning to put a proper matte finish on a razor before they even let him touch a grinder. Years. Not months. Or weeks. Years. Which is why I die a little inside each time some sad amateur "puts a shiny mirror finish on that puppy".

Even then, apprentices had to make stuff like Dubl Duck or Puma razors before the masters let them make proper, high quality razors. Years. When they say that "they just don't make stuff like that any more", they are right. Certainly not in Germany, because you would not find any apprentices any more. Because you cannot get a master's degree (for lack of a better translation, cf Meister) in razor making. Last fun fact for today: You never could. Knife making, yes. Cutlery, yes. Razors, no.

So, yes, it can be done. It has been done before, and is being done while you read this. But it won't be feasible unless you have the right connections, can find someone to properly train you for a few years (ie before he dies, because the last fully trained razor makers are in their late seventies), and find some venture capital (something like €50k should do, possibly twice that much).

Good luck.

Originally Posted by MileMarker60

2 people pushing out 20 finished razor a day seems really high. Even harder to imagine if they have no experience.

If I really go for something basic, and ignore the time to forge the blanks and tempering cycles, and really run back and forth in my shop without ever sitting down and don't look too closely for a quality finish... I could -MAYBE- finish 3 carbon steel razors in a day.

Now granted, if you buy premade scales by the thousands and it's just a matter of pinning, there'd be some optimization. But without the equipment they have at dovo or TI, no one is going to make 20 razors per day.

We're also ignoring something in this discussion: customers.
No matter how much razors you can turn out in a day, for the price point on which this discussion focuses, they will be very plain nothing to look at.
I would like to see a business plan regarding the way you're going to sell them.
Because getting rid of 400 per month is very hard unless you have the backing of a huge retailer (which btw will take at least 50% of the retail price).

Originally Posted by cudarunner

Which 'Machine'?

Don't let yourself be fooled by appearances. If that is the machine I have seen in detail, there is about a cubic meter of cast iron and cast steel machinery behind that little box. It is pre-war machinery that probably weighs half a ton, and will keep on working with extremely tight tolerances until the day this planet is eaten by the sun.

Not only is it almost impossible to have something like that made, but having one made to the same tolerances will probably cost the amount that others already mentioned. In fact yesterday I was talking with a printer when I was picking up a building plan on large size paper. I was admiring his machine for cutting, folding, punching and perforating cardboard automatically. It was a 100% mechanical Heidelberg. Safeties were all implemented using mechanics and pneumatics. It is a masterpieces.

The guy told me he'd gotten it from his father who was also a printer, and that an antique like that is still to be found in most high quality printing shops. He said that in terms of quality or reliability there is simply no equivalent. Especially if you factor in that those machines are designed to be operational for centuries, not for a decade. At one point he switches it on to demonstrate the safeties, and then climbed on top of the machine while it was running, and jumped up and down on it to show that it didn't even tremble and just kept chugging out work.

Don't underestimate such machines because by the time you're old and decrepit, those antique machines are still good as new. As a matter of fact, my mum's book cutting machine (she is a master book restorer) is from the 1700's, and still as good as new.

Originally Posted by 71L

II teach at a University and when male students hear I shave with a straight-razor they almost unanimously say "I've thought about doing that/will do that someday, but I don't have the money right now" obviously intrigued by the "cool factor" from the gleam in their eye. This is especially pronounced among the "hipster" types, even the ones with long, untrimmed, often sparse-to-mangy-looking beards... obviously they're not interested in the shave itself and more in the "cool/hipster-y" vibe that retro things have attained right now.

I don't know if hipsters are all about social status. I'm in my twenties, so I know a lot of them. Many of them are genuinely fanatical about their interests, and they haven't "moved on" since their interests have become mainstream. Craft beer and coffee wizardry used to be hipster things. Now every bar has a craft beer on draft, and every local coffee shop offers french press or pour over coffee. Yet none of the hipsters I've known have quit drinking or acquiring knowledge about craft beer or coffee because their interests have become mainstream.

For all their vanity, I think they've introduced (or, more often, re-introduced) a lot of great stuff into our culture. I wouldn't be surprised if they could do what they did with craft beer to straight razors. They're a huge untapped market, which is why I'm so excited about PRC, since I think they have a good chance of catching the hipster eye.

Originally Posted by vileru

I don't know if hipsters are all about social status. I'm in my twenties, so I know a lot of them. Many of them are genuinely fanatical about their interests, and they haven't "moved on" since their interests have become mainstream. Craft beer and coffee wizardry used to be hipster things. Now every bar has a craft beer on draft, and every local coffee shop offers french press or pour over coffee. Yet none of the hipsters I've known have quit drinking or acquiring knowledge about craft beer or coffee because their interests have become mainstream.

For all their vanity, I think they've introduced (or, more often, re-introduced) a lot of great stuff into our culture. I wouldn't be surprised if they could do what they did with craft beer to straight razors. They're a huge untapped market, which is why I'm so excited about PRC, since I think they have a good chance of catching the hipster eye.

First you would have to talk them out of their cool beards
Just a side note... I'm not sure I would attribute craft beer to hipsters..