Thread: If you were going to make a production razor...

Originally Posted by MattCB

Let me see if I can tease out some more opinions The experienced makers are pretty much saying it's possible but.... (insert quite a few large issues you have to deal with).

Would it make a difference if the price point was higher? Say $160 - $180, maybe $220 - $240? I'm still curious in regards to a production IMHO once you get to $200+ it becomes a more viable option but then there's still the important part... customers

At $200-250 I think if becomes more do able.

Originally Posted by MattCB

I took a look at the video again. If you look at the bin being used to catch the razor blanks for the second press operation (where the excess is removed) you can see a few hundred in the bin. If you look at the rest of the video, they have to be turning out at least a few hundred per day. Just to pay the wages of the workers, utilities and the rest would require around that many.

I'm 99% sure that part of the video is not Dovo, it's the drop forge that supplies all the German manufactures

Originally Posted by RobinK

No offense, but I doubt that anyone but a hardcore patriot would buy your razors stateside, let alone in Europe. know quite a few Hart razors, and they are simply not as good as a Solingen razor that costs the same or less.

I disagree, if a US company decided to jump in and product hollow ground razors (not 1/4 like Hart) I think they would pull buyer away for the German companies.
Right now the thing they (EU brands) have in their favor is true hollows grind razors and price.. If another company can produce the same, at high quality, I don't think it would matter where it was made.

Originally Posted by RobinK

Actually, more. But may I gently draw everyone's attention to the CNC robots used to produce the bottom end line of Dovo razors?

I would like to see the machine making razors.. honestly that's the first I've heard of it.

Originally Posted by MileMarker60

I disagree, if a US company decided to jump in and product hollow ground razors (not 1/4 like Hart) I think they would pull buyer away for the German companies.
Right now the thing they (EU brands) have in their favor is true hollows grind razors and price.. If another company can produce the same, at high quality, I don't think it would matter where it was made.

That is just speculation, but $200-250 would get you into competition with high(er) end Solingen razors. There are two things to consider:

1. Scales: At that price point, you would have to come up with really good scales. And really good scales are quite expensive. Since you would need a provider that scales (no pun intended), it would not be easy to find one that can provide large(r) numbers. Injection moulding wouldn't be attractive enough, and wood and especially horn are remarkably hard to do in such quantities. It has been tried before, but it never really quite worked, except for TI/Hart.
2. Craftsmen: As stated previously, making cutting objects of any kind (knives, cutlery, razors) is a skilled trade over here for good reason. Pließten for example is something maybe five people know how to do properly any more, and three of them are in their late seventies. Now, one might be able to start something new that deviates from the traditional production method, and people might even like it. But at $200-250, I think you will be looking at buyers who either want a traditional design/craftsmanship, or something radically new, which is why "custom" razors sell reasonably well, but Hart razors do not.

So there we have it: You can either try to sell to traditionalists like I, who are willing to pay a premium for a premium razor, but I doubt that producing one would be economically, or technically, feasible; and either way, I would still be looking for something that says, "centuries of tradition, and it shows". Sure, you could set up shop in Eskilstuna, Sheffield, or Solingen. But I don't think that was the plan.

Or you can try to sell to people who just want a razor. But those typically veer towards cheap import stuff these days, hence the deplorable popularity of various Chinese brands. Either way, the price range would not work, because you cannot make really good razors in really large numbers unless you build a team of highly skilled workers who divide their labour.

It is an interesting thought experiment. But not one which, I think, has any realistic chance of succeeding. Take a look at the new Giesen & Forsthoff, Puma, etc. razors. They are incredibly unpopular, because they're "ok" (actually, they are a disgrace) at a price point where you can get "truly great" from the few remaining manufactures.

I may be wrong, though, and personally, I would think it would be great to have more high quality manufacturers in the market, irrespective of their geographic origin.

Originally Posted by RobinK

That is just speculation, but $200-250 would get you into competition with high(er) end Solingen razors. There are two things to consider:

1. Scales: At that price point, you would have to come up with really good scales. And really good scales are quite expensive. Since you would need a provider that scales (no pun intended), it would not be easy to find one that can provide large(r) numbers. Injection moulding wouldn't be attractive enough, and wood and especially horn are remarkably hard to do in such quantities. It has been tried before, but it never really quite worked, except for TI/Hart.
2. Craftsmen: As stated previously, making cutting objects of any kind (knives, cutlery, razors) is a skilled trade over here for good reason. Pließten for example is something maybe five people know how to do properly any more, and three of them are in their late seventies. Now, one might be able to start something new that deviates from the traditional production method, and people might even like it. But at $200-250, I think you will be looking at buyers who either want a traditional design/craftsmanship, or something radically new, which is why "custom" razors sell reasonably well, but Hart razors do not.

So there we have it: You can either try to sell to traditionalists like I, who are willing to pay a premium for a premium razor, but I doubt that producing one would be economically, or technically, feasible; and either way, I would still be looking for something that says, "centuries of tradition, and it shows". Sure, you could set up shop in Eskilstuna, Sheffield, or Solingen. But I don't think that was the plan.

Or you can try to sell to people who just want a razor. But those typically veer towards cheap import stuff these days, hence the deplorable popularity of various Chinese brands. Either way, the price range would not work, because you cannot make really good razors in really large numbers unless you build a team of highly skilled workers who divide their labour.

It is an interesting thought experiment. But not one which, I think, has any realistic chance of succeeding. Take a look at the new Giesen & Forsthoff, Puma, etc. razors. They are incredibly unpopular, because they're "ok" (actually, they are a disgrace) at a price point where you can get "truly great" from the few remaining manufactures.

I may be wrong, though, and personally, I would think it would be great to have more high quality manufacturers in the market, irrespective of their geographic origin.

I see some of your points but at the same time it seems you are looking at things from a hometown perspective (Germany) .
It's not a bad thing, I'm just not sure your perspective is shared by everyone. But that is also what make the discussion interesting

Originally Posted by MileMarker60

I see some of your points but at the same time it seems you are looking at things from a hometown perspective (Germany) .
It's not a bad thing, I'm just not sure your perspective is shared by everyone. But that is also what make the discussion interesting

I'll readily admit that my being German has an impact on my perception of quality. And there may even be something universal rather than hometown about it. Most favourite razors in this forum? Almost exclusively German. And we did not put the entire competition out of the market for just any reason (hint, it was not our popularity as a people).

But, yes, it's an interesting discussion, and I would very much like to hear your counter arguments. Perspective is a great thing to have when it comes to new ideas.

Interesting thread. Looks like the biggest problem in North America is finding the talent to turn out full hollow, extra hollow and bellied hollow ground blades. I am sure there are talented people here who can do it but you likely don't need 2 hands to count them or possibly even 1 hand. You have to wonder if they would be willing to sit at a work station and turn out nothing but these blades day after day and for what kind of wage consider the scarcity of that type of skill?

Bob

Originally Posted by RobinK

I'll readily admit that my being German has an impact on my perception of quality. And there may even be something universal rather than hometown about it. Most favourite razors in this forum? Almost exclusively German. And we did not put the entire competition out of the market for just any reason (hint, it was not our popularity as a people).

It must have been the fabled German sense of humor

Personally I prefer Sheffield style and they were the last one to compete with Solingen. But I think that WW1 and 2 pretty much killed a lot of crafts and Sheffield razor makers didn't survive. I was told that at one point even Dovo was about to their razor production line. I agree that as a nation, Germany has an above average obsession with standardization and quality control. This has advantages and disadvantages, but when it comes to tools, it is an advantage. That is why I prefer German tools, German cars

Originally Posted by BobH

Interesting thread. Looks like the biggest problem in North America is finding the talent to turn out full hollow, extra hollow and bellied hollow ground blades. I am sure there are talented people here who can do it but you likely don't need 2 hands to count them or possibly even 1 hand. You have to wonder if they would be willing to sit at a work station and turn out nothing but these blades day after day and for what kind of wage consider the scarcity of that type of skill?

Bob

There is a reason that even in Germany, the handful of people with those qualifications are in their seventies.
Same as in Sheffield btw. The number of masters who can make scissors by hand is very low. The ones who are actual masters are only a handful of people well past retirement age. I know of one Sheffield knifemaker who has that level of skill (Grace Horne) and she is one of the only ones to learn doing it properly.

No, Bob, you don't need talent, you need skills acquired through years of training. Talent is entirely optional. And in order to receive the required training, you need a trainer. And I don't mean mentoring over the internet, but a dual vocational training system.

And you don't have those people or that system. So you will not be able to produce to the same quality standards.

Which, as Bruno blithely put it, need not necessarily be a disadvantage. Unless you try to compete with German products.

And Bruno is right about something else, too: You will not be able to recruit a member of generation Y for such a menial job. Especially if you cannot use the qualification and training acquired elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Bruno

There is a reason that even in Germany, the handful of people with those qualifications are in their seventies.
Same as in Sheffield btw. The number of masters who can make scissors by hand is very low. The ones who are actual masters are only a handful of people well past retirement age. I know of one Sheffield knifemaker who has that level of skill (Grace Horne) and she is one of the only ones to learn doing it properly.

Yea, thank the stars that there are still vintage razors, a few new makes and the odd custom maker that can still turn out those types of grinds if you want them. It would be extremely hard to set up a small business today and turn those grinds out at an entry level price point.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

Yea, thank the stars that there are still vintage razors, a few new makes and the odd custom maker that can still turn out those types of grinds if you want them.

Actually, I can think of exactly two: Wacker (on a good day), and Revisor. Aust could probably do it, because he's got the skills and tools, but he doesn't make them, I think. And that's that. I have yet to see any custom razor that comes anywhere close - because they don't have the tools and therefore lack the skills.

And if you ever manage to pick up a Peres Reina or a Mehl Spezial, you will realise what truly qualified craftsmen were able to do back then. Hint: those razors make one of the fabled Filarmonica razors look like an amateur job.