Thread: Info on Damascus ?

We have had alot of opinions expressed and much conjecture about whether the TI is wootz or isn't and since we have had no analysis done I would reserve any final opinions. Whatever it is since I have one I will only say that it is very tough stuff and holds an edge like no other razor I have had including the maestro razors.

In answer to the original post here from my experience with the TI "Damascus" I will say that if it requires honing your in for a real project but once honed it will maintain its edge for a very long time. I've probably shaved with mine at least 50 times and its still going strong with no touch ups required. As far as stropping goes its no different than any other razor out there.

Looking at the pictures of the razor on classic shaving I must say it looks more like Damascus than wootz. You may want to ask classic shaving though they never answered questions I emailed to them.

I've offered an opinion that is founded in fact, not conjecture in a previous thread. I'll repeat myself for clarity.

The TI razors, as shown in their web available pictures, are pattern welded steels, not wootz. The evidence is in the obvious welding flaws along the polished edge. Pattern welded steel does that. A crucible melted steel like wootz will not have that kind of flaw. Their advertising takes liberties with the facts.

The real problems are in the semantics or nomenclature. Original damascus is better referred to in the same breath as wootz and everything else that is laminated, sintered or forge-folded and welded as pattern welded steels.

But you can't get folks to quit using the wrong term for the wrong steel.

I make the stuff myself. I have hundreds of pounds of pattern welded steel in my shop and several pounds of wootz from several makers to compare to for reference. I have no lack of confidence about my ability to judge either material. Analysis is not required. Until I can hold one of this type of TI razor in my hands I'll say I'm 99.9% certain. But based on the photos available, I'm 100% certain.

The original question had to do with honing and shaving and Bigspendur has shared his experience with that type of blade. That qualifies as a good answer to the original question. TI, as described to me, has a heat treatment regimen that is capable of producing outstanding blades. His particular blade is as hard as the hubs of Hell. The next blade may not have been. It all depends, don't it?

Sorry Mike for not recognizing your expertise on Damascus and wootz.

But one thing in your post above confuses me.

As I read this:

"The real problems are in the semantics or nomenclature. Original damascus is better referred to in the same breath as wootz and everything else that is laminated, sintered or forge-folded and welded as pattern welded steels"

do you mean that wootz is forge folded? As I understand it Damascus is forge-golded and the pattern disappears after melting the iron while wootz wil after melting and then cooling in a specific way regain its pattern time after time. Can you clarify this to me?

It's okay, who the hell knows me anyway. LOL.

Wootz is iron containing specific alloying materials, a source of carbon, all melted in a closed crucible. Once the melt has been achieved, the crucible is allowed to cool slowly over time. This slow cooling produces dendritic crystalline formations within the body of the "button" at the bottom of the crucible. Once cooled the button is reheated and the forged to the end shape desired. This does not specifically exclude the possibility that the wootz could be forge welded to another piece of wootz to increase the mass available for making a larger blade or armor or a pillar. Generally, wootz is not folded however due to the desirability of the dendritic structure being exposed on the surface, e.g. the watered pattern.

Pattern or laminates, imply the joining of two different alloys by forge welding. The result is a linear pattern on the surface of the material. Now two bars welded together would be fairly boring from an aesthetic point of view. So, the now single bar is cut and folded back on itself at the cut, (or cut through and the pieces stacked on each other) then welded again to increase the layer count and make for a more interesting pattern.

More recently, in Europe, steel companies experimenting with powder metallurgical processes figured out a way to spray "layers" of powder into mold forms and using hot isostatic press methods, sinter the layered powders into a single bar of steel, aka Damasteel. This gives a similar appearance to laminated steels as derived from original bars but with much finer grain structure and control over alloying content and distribution throughout the billet.

At this point techniques to manipulate the patterns of both wootz and laminated materials converge. Twisting, engraving, incising, grinding, forging with dies then grinding away material and so forth can all be used to create additional distortions in the superficial patterns of either material.

While a lot of us have tried, it is difficult to get any laminated material to show the same pattern as wootz. That is why they are so easy to identify as different.

I think what you are referring to is a process that Alfred Pendray undertook during his experiments reproducing wootz methods. Pattern welded steels are not melted. Wootz is produced from melting iron and carbon in a controlled environment (crucible) making it into steel. There are methods of controlling the activity of the carbides after the crucible melt that affect the appearance of the material. If the material is right, that can mean that with the right heat treatment techniques the pattern can be made to disappear and reappear. But that is related to wootz, not patterned steel. I respect Alfred's wish to keep that proprietary however.

Wikipedia is working on consolidating the definitions. Some historical references more properly applied to wootz are listed in the damascus steel section and that can lead to misunderstanding about the different materials.

I'm a practical smith. Keeping these two definitions separated helps me keep things simple. Then marketing ploys don't get confusing.

Thanks for your elaborate answer. BTW do you make wootz razors?

Not to get ahead of my "to-do" list, I have made straights in the past, and I'm considering doing some in the near future. Making a razor from wootz has a strong likelihood, since I'm fortunate to have a supply. If I do, I'll post pictures first. I also have tamahagane on the bench which should make for a different choice, but I need to study the Japanese razor styles a little more first.

That would be really interesting, Mike. I suspect both steels would be very well suited for straight razors, indeed.

Mike,

Thanks alot for the great explanations.

Lynn

Originally Posted by adjustme69

Mike,

Thanks alot for the great explanations.

Lynn

Ditto what Lynn said. You took the time to share some really detailed information about something that can be awfully confusing. The phrase "You da MAN" comes to mind.