Thread: pre hard black arkie stone

Originally Posted by mainaman

IMO that means that either your Jnat is not capable of producing that really top end edge or the stone is not being maximized.

I wondered also if it was a razor finisher.

Originally Posted by mainaman

IMO that means that either your Jnat is not capable of producing that really top end edge, or the stone is not being maximized, all this assuming all the prep work on lower grits was done correctly.
I personally do not see how anything can improve quality Jnat edge.

Stefan,

I wrote a very long response to this, but instead I'll simply ask "why?" Why do you believe that nothing can improve a quality Jnat edge? That's a huge and ultimately unprovable assertion, but it's what you believe and I'm curious why.
mark

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Stefan,

I wrote a very long response to this, but instead I'll simply ask "why?" Why do you believe that nothing can improve a quality Jnat edge? That's a huge and ultimately unprovable assertion, but it's what you believe and I'm curious why.
mark

Good quality Jnats will be as smooth as glass to touch once prepped correctly can get up to or over 40,000 grit due to the way the particles break down. They are absolutely awesome stones!

An arkanses can still be pepped to be almost as smooth as glass although the particle sizes are larger and they don't break down, so the grit is much lower.

It would be like going from 40,000 grit to 8,000 grit. 8,000 grit will give a nice shave but 40,000 grit should give a better shave

This will depend on the user and the stone. Obviously the harder the Jnats the more of a "glass" effect your going to get. Thee are many other factors that will effect a Jnats performance like slurry, toxic lines, strata and even the mine.

So, your probably better off letting us know what Jnats you have, posting some pics so we can make sure it has no toxic lines and get a rough idea on the stone itself, this may give us an idea if the problems are related to the stone or the honing technique.

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Stefan,

I wrote a very long response to this, but instead I'll simply ask "why?" Why do you believe that nothing can improve a quality Jnat edge? That's a huge and ultimately unprovable assertion, but it's what you believe and I'm curious why.
mark

It is very simple a good Jnat finisher makes edges that do not need further improvement, no pastes no other hones after that, just plain strop. If a person is looking to improve the edge after certain hone, then the edge is not the best, that is true. In the case of Jnats, when finishers are concerned, we do not hear people going to another stone after.

Originally Posted by Brighty83

Good quality Jnats will be as smooth as glass to touch once prepped correctly can get up to or over 40,000 grit due to the way the particles break down. They are absolutely awesome stones!

An arkanses can still be pepped to be almost as smooth as glass although the particle sizes are larger and they don't break down, so the grit is much lower.

It would be like going from 40,000 grit to 8,000 grit. 8,000 grit will give a nice shave but 40,000 grit should give a better shave

This will depend on the user and the stone. Obviously the harder the Jnats the more of a "glass" effect your going to get. Thee are many other factors that will effect a Jnats performance like slurry, toxic lines, strata and even the mine.

So, your probably better off letting us know what Jnats you have, posting some pics so we can make sure it has no toxic lines and get a rough idea on the stone itself, this may give us an idea if the problems are related to the stone or the honing technique.

Brighty,
In the interest of accuracy, it needs noting that Arkie's grit rating is commonly listed as between 600-1200 but this is not how they're graded. They're graded according to specific gravity (2.5 for the trans arkies). Just wanted to make sure there was no confusion. This is easily googled.

We seem to have hijacked the OP's thread with a discussion about the quality of my rocks and technique rather than the efficacy of arkies as finishers, so I'll close out my part in the discussion.

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Brighty,
In the interest of accuracy, it needs noting that Arkie's grit rating is commonly listed as between 600-1200 but this is not how they're graded. They're graded according to specific gravity (2.5 for the trans arkies). Just wanted to make sure there was no confusion. This is easily googled.

I fairly sure they are much higher then 1.2k and estimated to be closer to the 4-8k ranger for the surgical black and translucent if prepared correctly. I fact, if your saying they are 2.5um that would be closer to 9k.

I've never been huge on the Arkansas stones so I'm sure one of the Arkansas gurus will add some advise to this.

Specific Gravity is a ratio of the density of a material vs. an equal volume of water. Not a measure of distance. Specific gravity is useful in comparing/grading materials quickly.

Jonathan

When it comes to Razors and Arkies.. there are several aspects to consider that are just not present with most water stones...

First the stone, Surgical Black or Translucent are then ones most gravitate towards but don't ever let color fool you, how dense and how smooth the stone can become are way more important than color.. I learned a lot about Oil stones from working water stones more than I ever knew in the past..
So with an Arkie the stone surface is very important, it has to be lapped and smoothed before it will do any good on razors, it takes time to smooth in the surface, the fastest way I have found is to use another Arkie..

Once you get the stone prepped, then you have to get the razor to a shave ready state before the Arkie is going to do anything good, for me that is at 8k, it has been my contention for a few years now that a "Finisher" is a stone that improves the edge that I can produce on a 8k,..
The other thing to consider is Sharper is easy, Smoother is not quite as easy to achieve, that takes a bit more practice..

With an Arkie you have to bring quite a few variables together before you are going to get good results, are they better then using waterstones??? I would not go that far, but they give good comfortable shaves when worked correctly... If you like to work with the edge, and you get satisfaction from the work as much as the edge then Arkies are for you...


Now to the OP's actual question ...

I have no clue see you're asking what to do between two unknowns I have no clue what your Coti can do and even less about what your Arkie can do, if I were talking about my Coti and my Arkie the answer would be "Why" would I put anything between two finishers it would never occur to me to combine those two stones in my progression..
Same with my Nakayama or Escher. I have never prescribed to the notion of multiple finishers, seems like chasing the Tiger's tail to me, weakens the final edge, IMHO.. The only time I have ever come close to that is using a Coti with slurry to set a bevel on a Kamisori and finishing with a Nakayama but that is a different story all together

Best bet try it and see what happens

Originally Posted by gssixgun

When it comes to Razors and Arkies.. there are several aspects to consider that are just not present with most water stones...

First the stone, Surgical Black or Translucent are then ones most gravitate towards but don't ever let color fool you, how dense and how smooth the stone can become are way more important than color.. I learned a lot about Oil stones from working water stones more than I ever knew in the past..
So with an Arkie the stone surface is very important, it has to be lapped and smoothed before it will do any good on razors, it takes time to smooth in the surface, the fastest way I have found is to use another Arkie..

Once you get the stone prepped, then you have to get the razor to a shave ready state before the Arkie is going to do anything good, for me that is at 8k, it has been my contention for a few years now that a "Finisher" is a stone that improves the edge that I can produce on a 8k,..
The other thing to consider is Sharper is easy, Smoother is not quite as easy to achieve, that takes a bit more practice..

With an Arkie you have to bring quite a few variables together before you are going to get good results, are they better then using waterstones??? I would not go that far, but they give good comfortable shaves when worked correctly... If you like to work with the edge, and you get satisfaction from the work as much as the edge then Arkies are for you...


Now to the OP's actual question ...

I have no clue see you're asking what to do between two unknowns I have no clue what your Coti can do and even less about what your Arkie can do, if I were talking about my Coti and my Arkie the answer would be "Why" would I put anything between two finishers it would never occur to me to combine those two stones in my progression..
Same with my Nakayama or Escher. I have never prescribed to the notion of multiple finishers, seems like chasing the Tiger's tail to me, weakens the final edge, IMHO.. The only time I have ever come close to that is using a Coti with slurry to set a bevel on a Kamisori and finishing with a Nakayama but that is a different story all together

Best bet try it and see what happens

Thats as good of an answer as I could hope for and works for me.