Thread: RE: The Potential of Black Arkansas & Translucent as a Razor Finisher

1KnifeGuy4U- I believe it was my thread that was getting a little high jacked but I didn't really mind.

I have come to this conclusion on my arkie that I have, mind you it is a 4x2 Surgical Black. I bought it off ebay at a steel. It was NOS from some company I can't really read the label. As it was never used I had to lap it and man did that suck. It has some translucense but not like the white ones and thats because it is black.

I started to lap it with 180 grit SP and worked my way all the way to basically using my dragons tongue from IJ as a lapping stone. I read somewhere, and it was probably here, that the more polished it is the smoother edge you will get. The person suggested taking hard steel to it and just going to town... so that is what I did. I broke down all the little novaculite quarts particles to where they are smooth. Unlike waterstones where new sharpening material is always released freshly, arkies do not release new sharpening grit hence why you can't make a slurry nor IMO should you make a slurry, let the surface get worn. Instead the grit just breaks down and becomes smoother. Thats why for knives you have to reface them to be of any use and thats also why they are slow. I was talking to a guy and he likened waterstones to being like dragging a pickaxe through soil where you get deep narrow scratches and an arkie like dragging a shovel through dirt where you get very shallow but wide scratches and that is where the smoothness come from. I am not saying its true I am just saying that is what a guy told me. The SB that I have has been worked like a mule and it has a reflective surface in it. I can see my reflection in it. Don't know if this is a good thing or bad thing as it does take a very long time to see any results but as far as I can tell the results are worth it to me.

The one last thing that I will add is that in the world of hones some of them get very expensive (JNATS, Eschers, Thuringians..what have you) and they work great and always have and there is a reason why they are expensive....because they're the bees knees. However if you are like me and don't have money to throw at stones there is the Surgical Black or Translucent that can get you where you want to be. The only trade off for having saved money is that now you must work much longer and harder for your edge. I am willing to make that trade others are not. I am not saying that an arkie is better than every other stone and I really doubt that they are better than JNATS and eschers but they're alot freaking cheaper especially since I got mine for 11 bucks in a cedar box that is fancy and smells nice.

Oh and about the lap counts....I don't count I find it to be futile to count. I just keep going till I get that suction-y? feel and then do about 100 more. Don't know if thats necessary but it works for me.

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Modine,
Is that Iwasaki's symbol peeking out from the lather?

That CF is beautiful. I've never used one or seen one I particularly wanted until now.

How are you testing your novaculites and what have you found out so far?

Yes sir it is an Iwasaki. Thank you, these are the “super fine” stones as the OP requested. Because these stones are being tested as “finishers”, certain criteria have to be taken into consideration.

1. High quality razor steel needs to be selected in this case an Iwasaki, Le Jaguar, Torrey, and an FWE.
2. All test stones has been prepared and lapped, edges beveled and the surface polished to remove any chance for damage or contamination.
3. The edges will progressed to the 8K level which is generally accepted as a finished edge prior to moving on to the test stone.
4. Instead of using water or slurry at this level, oil will be used on the test stones to reduce friction on this hard stone.
5. Because this is novaculite, 100-X laps, strokes or passes will be made on the test stones and then the edge will be inspected. If improvement has been indicated another 50 X-laps will be made and again inspected. The edge will be palm stropped and visually inspected at 100X magnification at each level during the progression.
6. Shave test the razor. Do not strop on any material. WTG and ATG shave passes will be made. Test the heel the tip and middle portions of the edge throughout the shave. Complete an entire shave session.
7. After the shave, immediately inspect the edge for any sign of deformation or deterioration and note results.
Mike

On oil, I have never, repeat never overhoned on CF with good steel razors like you have mentioned...I just haven't honed a Iwasaki to date. From what I hear, no worries there either. I hope to see your report.

Originally Posted by 1KnifeGuy4U

I am purely interested in the potential of the Arkansas stones. Because there are people on both sides of the fence; some who claim the Arks aren't capable of adding anything, and others who claim they can, I find this topic most interesting. Also, because these natural stones aren't rare in the U.S., but in fact there are several sources for them; they aren't at all like the Japanese naturals or the rare European stones in that anyone here can own one.

I'd like to think that some stone gurus somewhere could learn how to maximize the potential of a high grade Ark stone. It's America's sharpening stone.

Here is what I can tell you..

I started SR shaving in 1981 at 22, the barber that taught me about it helped me find my first two razors and helped me order the Arkansas stone (note that this stone ran $102 back then and was ordered not in stock at the Knife shop) and the Illinois strop to keep them sharp.. From 1981 until about 2002-03 I shaved those razors and every weekend I would touch them up as I had been taught on that stone...
For all those years that system worked and provided me with close comfortable shaves, really what more does one need ???

Sometime around the beginning of 2003 I dropped the second razor and moved away from using SR's for the next 3 years I suffered again, as my face just hates anything but a straight. At the end of 2006 I told the wife that it I needed to find some more straight razors, so I spent the next 6 months acquiring some off ebay I spent some time restoring these blades and really making a hobby out of it, in July of 2007 I found B&B and shortly there after found started reading this guy "Adustmet69" aka Lynn's posts and found SRP which had way more info on SR's.

Pretty soon I had bought a Norton 4/8 and realized just how much difference there was in honing on a waterstone vs an oilstone, about 1500 razors went by, and I added a few more waterstone finishers.. Now after about 10k razors across a plethora of waterstones and a few oilstones, the same old Arkansas a couple more, and a CF that I own and a multitude of others that I have tested at the meets..

Here are some things I have found,,,

Knife sharp and Razor sharp are not anywhere close
Arkansas stones require very careful prep to be of any use at all on razors
Although Arkansas stones are plentiful and cheap in the US many of them are next to useless for SR's
A useful Arkie can be made next to useless in the wrong hands
Once you have the right Arkie that has been carefully prepped and is used correctly on a "Shave Ready" razor they will act as a good finisher
I find little difference in said Arkie and a quality CF edge on my face, but take that with a grain of salt and try it yourself
Smith's Honing Solution is a magical product for people that own expensive waterstones and expensive oilstones and worry about oil contaminating their waterstones
Honing a SR using a "Progression" of Arkansas stones works, but not as well as using waterstones note I said "well" easier is a given, but waterstones are not only faster but they set the bevel more evenly.. I do not know why, I only have theories...

So in conclusion, yes Arkansas stones when chosen wisely, prepped diligently, and used as a finisher expertly, will give an excellent shaving edge...

Excellent summary of long personal experience with arkies.

So nice to see someone with nice Razors, a nice Translucent, and a nice Charnley Forest throw down the gauntlet and give it a go. If someone gets great results, I'd like to know how they prepped their stone.

Originally Posted by 1KnifeGuy4U

I am purely interested in the potential of the Arkansas stones. I lived in north Arkansas for 3 years, and I really enjoyed my time there. It was the best 3 years of my life.

Because there are people on both sides of the fence; some who claim the Arks aren't capable of adding anything, and others who claim they can, I find this topic most interesting. Also, because these natural stones aren't rare in the U.S., but in fact there are several sources for them; they aren't at all like the Japanese naturals or the rare European stones in that anyone here can own one.

The U.S. doesn't have Thuringians, Eschers, Coticules, BBWs, or the Japanese naturals coming out of the ground. However there is something similar to the Charnley Forest stones coming out of the ground in some quantity. I'd like to think that some stone gurus somewhere could learn how to maximize the potential of a high grade Ark stone. It's America's sharpening stone.

I own a 8"x2"x.5" BBW, and even with slurry it's slowwww. Arks aren't the only slow cutting stones.

we also have slate too. we are one of very few places that you can get red slate from

Heres my routine for breaking in arks. i first lap the ark with a dmt 220 then once flat i move on to a dmt 325 that is very worn to smooth out the stone. i use water in the frist two steps . after im done with the dmt 325 i let the stone dry and take a translucent ark that has already been made flat and i rub the two stones together until i get white quartz powder all over the stone.(rubbing them together dry) i repeat three times. on to the last step i put oil on the stone and use a piece of tool steel and i rub the stone down to finish the smooth out process i rub the stone until i can see some swarf on the stone repeat three times and your stone is broke in

Originally Posted by cosperryan

Oh and about the lap counts....I don't count I find it to be futile to count. I just keep going till I get that suction-y? feel and then do about 100 more. Don't know if thats necessary but it works for me.

Couldn't agree more. I give the 200 number because people always ask and just saying "a lot" doesn't help. Sometimes it's more and sometimes it's less, but probably not a lot less

Originally Posted by MODINE

Yes sir it is an Iwasaki. Thank you, these are the “super fine” stones as the OP requested. Because these stones are being tested as “finishers”, certain criteria have to be taken into consideration.

1. High quality razor steel needs to be selected in this case an Iwasaki, Le Jaguar, Torrey, and an FWE.
2. All test stones has been prepared and lapped, edges beveled and the surface polished to remove any chance for damage or contamination.
3. The edges will progressed to the 8K level which is generally accepted as a finished edge prior to moving on to the test stone.
4. Instead of using water or slurry at this level, oil will be used on the test stones to reduce friction on this hard stone.
5. Because this is novaculite, 100-X laps, strokes or passes will be made on the test stones and then the edge will be inspected. If improvement has been indicated another 50 X-laps will be made and again inspected. The edge will be palm stropped and visually inspected at 100X magnification at each level during the progression.
6. Shave test the razor. Do not strop on any material. WTG and ATG shave passes will be made. Test the heel the tip and middle portions of the edge throughout the shave. Complete an entire shave session.
7. After the shave, immediately inspect the edge for any sign of deformation or deterioration and note results.
Mike

I'm really interested in what you find. I have some questions. What stones are you using up to the arkie? Also, I'm surprised you'll go from an 8k edge to the Arkie. I would have thought it would need to be taken much further than that. Why no stropping? Even just a few laps to get rid of small particulates at the edge? Finally, what kind of oil?

WIth no stropping, you feel exactly what the stone has done to the steel on your face.