Thread: RE: The Potential of Black Arkansas & Translucent as a Razor Finisher

I always used the Washita and the Soft Ark on pocket knives. That was good enough, and I didn't bother going to the trans or the black hard with them because I didn't want/need that fine an edge. I have used the trans and/or the black hard on shave ready razors following the Norton 4/8. Used the arks with oil always. I liked the edges the trans and the black produced.

I don't have any j-nats so I can't speak to that. I'd rate the edges I've gotten off of the aforementioned Arks equal to many coticule edges I've gotten but not as fine/sharp/smooth as those off of the y/g Escher or the Suhiro Gokumyo 20k. Not to say that some may have a different impression based on their experience. As always YMMV.

Brighty83, that's a nice picture. That's representative of the nicer modern hones being sold in Arkansas right now.

I have 4 Surgical Blacks; a 6x2x1, a 4x2x1, a 4x2.5x.5, and a very small 2x2x1 piece. I also have 2 Translucents; a 6x2x1 Grey, and a 4x2x.5 White. Of these, the 6x2x1 SB seems to be the finest grit stone, but also the slowest cutting stone. All were purchased at knife shops in Arkansas by me personally. Oddly enough, those small knife shops mainly carried Soft and Hard Arkansas stones. I bought the Black and Translucent stones I have at normal "Hard" stone prices. Lucky me. I wish they would have had more stones for me to cherry pick.

MODINE, The coloration on that old stone is interesting. It would take an unbelievable amount of time imo, for oil to change the color of a stone that hard. The Translucents don't drink oil like the Soft stones do. It just floats on the surface for the most part.

With continued use, these stones get a glassy surface which makes them a polishing stone, with almost no metal removal. I have to frequently re-condition the surfaces on my stones so I can use them with Knives.

Hi 1KnifeGuy4U; this particular stone was acquired out antiquing around Coffeyville Kansas. The stone was so severely dished I lapped the opposite side. Cleaning was difficult, the stone was completely saturated with what I believe was blood. Probably used in the slaughter houses, buffalo skinning, unknown etc.
Mike

Originally Posted by zib

Mark,

Thanks for starting a new thread. Looking at the stones here, I can see it varies greatly by the Arks the person uses, like any other natural.
It looks like you guys didn't buy your stones off some Arkansas vendor online. When I think Jnats as a final finisher, I'm thinking in the 40k range. I use Nakayama, either Maruka or Maruichi Asagi. They're great finishers. I've never gone to an Arkie after that. I don't see how the edge could get better, but I'm always willing to listen to someone's findings. I think in your case, it has a lot to do with the stones you have. If someone were to go buy an SB, say off Hall's Arkansas stones, I don't think they could get the same results you did, or could they? I'm no Arkie expert, that's for sure.

I'm assuming the SB has to be well used? or well worn. You said thousands of laps? How much work do you need to do on the SB under normal circumstances to surpass the Jnat the edge? I know it varies, so just ballpark?

What would a person need to do to get the edges you speak of. As I said, is it possible with normal SB's bought from an online vendor to surpass Jnat edges or even the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k, etc.....

Very nice stones btw, I really like the Translucent.

The question about vintage vs modern stones is, I suspect, ultimately unanswerable. It's certainly unanswerable by me without another 10 years of honing. There's no obvious reason (i.e. obvious to me) that a recently mined stone of +99% silica should perform less well than a vintage mined stone that will also be of +99% silica (assuming identical Specific Gravity). When graded properly, the stones should be indistinguishable one from the other. Perhaps the difference is in the grading practices among the different mines and between the old mines and the modern ones. Of course I could be wildly wrong here and there might be variables beyond the conditioning of the stone by steel over time of which I'm unaware. Ask me again in 10 years and I might actually have a real answer. So far, I can't really tell the difference in the output from my different arkies based on age or color and I have them from ivory white to that old vintage yellow to gray/black to jet black and their estimated ages of original mining are from 100 years to 40 years old. The big difference I can tell is how finished the surface is relates directly to the comfort of the edge. At least, I "think" it does.

The notion of "improving" an edge is the right way to think of it, imo. I don't know that the arkie gives a finished jnat edge more keenness. To my face, it feels smoother. By the way, it doesn't always do it. I took a bunch of razors in rotation but not freshly honed and gave them all about 200 laps on the arkie on oil one evening and some got better and some didn't. I don't know why. On a freshly honed razor, it always seems to improve the edge, but not on one in rotation. For this reason, I don't use it as a touch up razor. The results have been inconsistent there.

I don't know what it would do after the Suehiro 20k but sure would like to know. Do you have a Trans arkie? If so, put a fresh edge on a razor, from bevel on up to finishing on the SG and let us know. I'd be really curious. I lent one of my SB's to a friend in Asia who uses only synthetics and I believe he finishes on either a Shapton 15k or a Naniwa SS 12k and he believes unambiguously that he is getting better edges.

As you can see, I have more questions than answers, but chasing those answers down is the fun of this whole endeavor. And thank you for the compliment on the stone. I particularly love that old beast.

Originally Posted by 1KnifeGuy4U

MODINE, The coloration on that old stone is interesting. It would take an unbelievable amount of time imo, for oil to change the color of a stone that hard. The Translucents don't drink oil like the Soft stones do. It just floats on the surface for the most part.

With continued use, these stones get a glassy surface which makes them a polishing stone, with almost no metal removal. I have to frequently re-condition the surfaces on my stones so I can use them with Knives.

This past summer my son and I stayed with one of my oldest and closest friends at his beach house in Rhodey. He also rents the one next door to his and that week a friend of his who is a professor of geology stayed there with his wife and grown kids. We had dinner with them every night. I asked him about arkies changing color and while he caveated his answer telling me that wasn't really his field of expertise, he did say that he didn't think the trans arkies changed color because of oil absorption, but rather because of exposure to light. I know this is also true of vintage glass bottles. It's called light irradiation. Bottles and Arkies are made of much the same thing: silica. The softer ones clearly are more absorbent, but I think the trans arkies just change as a result of exposure to light.

It could be that high density Arkansas stones are able to polish what is an already excellent edge, by smoothing out the more defined scratches left by other stones.

Originally Posted by 1KnifeGuy4U

It could be that high density Arkansas stones are able to polish what is an already excellent edge, by smoothing out the more defined scratches left by other stones.

I'm not against your theory as I can sometimes improve the comfort of an edge by doing 4 strokes ,dry, on my Jnat finisher. Doing 200 laps seems a lot to me tho. Have you tried less ?

I am purely interested in the potential of the Arkansas stones. I lived in north Arkansas for 3 years, and I really enjoyed my time there. It was the best 3 years of my life.

Because there are people on both sides of the fence; some who claim the Arks aren't capable of adding anything, and others who claim they can, I find this topic most interesting. Also, because these natural stones aren't rare in the U.S., but in fact there are several sources for them; they aren't at all like the Japanese naturals or the rare European stones in that anyone here can own one.

The U.S. doesn't have Thuringians, Eschers, Coticules, BBWs, or the Japanese naturals coming out of the ground. However there is something similar to the Charnley Forest stones coming out of the ground in some quantity. I'd like to think that some stone gurus somewhere could learn how to maximize the potential of a high grade Ark stone. It's America's sharpening stone.

I own a 8"x2"x.5" BBW, and even with slurry it's slowwww. Arks aren't the only slow cutting stones.

Originally Posted by 1KnifeGuy4U

I am purely interested in the potential of the Arkansas stones. Because there are people on both sides of the fence; some who claim the Arks aren't capable of adding anything, and others who claim they can, I find this topic most interesting. Also, because these natural stones aren't rare in the U.S., but in fact there are several sources for them; they aren't at all like the Japanese naturals or the rare European stones in that anyone here can own one.

I'd like to think that some stone gurus somewhere could learn how to maximize the potential of a high grade Ark stone. It's America's sharpening stone.

Here is what I can tell you..

I started SR shaving in 1981 at 22, the barber that taught me about it helped me find my first two razors and helped me order the Arkansas stone (note that this stone ran $102 back then and was ordered not in stock at the Knife shop) and the Illinois strop to keep them sharp.. From 1981 until about 2002-03 I shaved those razors and every weekend I would touch them up as I had been taught on that stone...
For all those years that system worked and provided me with close comfortable shaves, really what more does one need ???

Sometime around the beginning of 2003 I dropped the second razor and moved away from using SR's for the next 3 years I suffered again, as my face just hates anything but a straight. At the end of 2006 I told the wife that it I needed to find some more straight razors, so I spent the next 6 months acquiring some off ebay I spent some time restoring these blades and really making a hobby out of it, in July of 2007 I found B&B and shortly there after found started reading this guy "Adustmet69" aka Lynn's posts and found SRP which had way more info on SR's.

Pretty soon I had bought a Norton 4/8 and realized just how much difference there was in honing on a waterstone vs an oilstone, about 1500 razors went by, and I added a few more waterstone finishers.. Now after about 10k razors across a plethora of waterstones and a few oilstones, the same old Arkansas a couple more, and a CF that I own and a multitude of others that I have tested at the meets..

Here are some things I have found,,,

Knife sharp and Razor sharp are not anywhere close
Arkansas stones require very careful prep to be of any use at all on razors
Although Arkansas stones are plentiful and cheap in the US many of them are next to useless for SR's
A useful Arkie can be made next to useless in the wrong hands
Once you have the right Arkie that has been carefully prepped and is used correctly on a "Shave Ready" razor they will act as a good finisher
I find little difference in said Arkie and a quality CF edge on my face, but take that with a grain of salt and try it yourself
Smith's Honing Solution is a magical product for people that own expensive waterstones and expensive oilstones and worry about oil contaminating their waterstones
Honing a SR using a "Progression" of Arkansas stones works, but not as well as using waterstones note I said "well" easier is a given, but waterstones are not only faster but they set the bevel more evenly.. I do not know why, I only have theories...

So in conclusion, yes Arkansas stones when chosen wisely, prepped diligently, and used as a finisher expertly, will give an excellent shaving edge...

Originally Posted by 1KnifeGuy4U

I am purely interested in the potential of the Arkansas stones. I lived in north Arkansas for 3 years, and I really enjoyed my time there. It was the best 3 years of my life.

Because there are people on both sides of the fence; some who claim the Arks aren't capable of adding anything, and others who claim they can, I find this topic most interesting. Also, because these natural stones aren't rare in the U.S., but in fact there are several sources for them; they aren't at all like the Japanese naturals or the rare European stones in that anyone here can own one.

The U.S. doesn't have Thuringians, Eschers, Coticules, BBWs, or the Japanese naturals coming out of the ground. However there is something similar to the Charnley Forest stones coming out of the ground in some quantity. I'd like to think that some stone gurus somewhere could learn how to maximize the potential of a high grade Ark stone. It's America's sharpening stone.

I own a 8"x2"x.5" BBW, and even with slurry it's slowwww. Arks aren't the only slow cutting stones.

we also have slate too. we are one of very few places that you can get red slate from