Thread: Natural equivalent to a 12k Synthetic

Whole lotta high grit numbers being tossed out there for natural stones with not one shred of proof..

Next thing you know every Newb will add 2k to your numbers and be calling it gospel..


The fact of the matter still is that Grit numbers are only accurate within each synthetic series of Hones, a 8k Naniwa SS doesn't even relate to a 8k Shapton.. I fact if you want to get real technical there is a difference between a 5k Naniwa SS and a 5k Naniwa Chosera...

The only fact is that a 12k Naniwa SS is a higher grit range then a 8k Naniwa SS other then that it is all conjecture and opinion.. When you start giving grit numbers to Naturals then you have stepped over to Myth...

Originally Posted by pinklather

The man's doctor told him he has too much money and not enough frustration...

JG - unless your experience on the stones vastly exceeds the experience of your 'join date', your AD's will do nothing for your edges. Its a state where your enthusiam (a good thing) obscures/overwhelms your objective - skill on stones, better shaving edges.

Growing the rock garden when new - lets you have exposure to lots of rocks (wonderful experience) but competency on few or none of them.

Its usually the case that nothing anyone can say will change that. You sorta have to come to that conclusion on your own.

If I could toss in a thought to the cauldron of excitement, it would be that there's no rock that will get you further down the road (especially not naturals) than honing a couple hundred more blades.

For now, enjoy the excitement. When the fog clears, you have some rocks to play with and the knowledge that its not the rock, its the rockhound.

You're a real buzzkill!!!


I appreciate it!

And I know you're correct. The rockpile is currently big enough that if I were to croak over tomorrow, two of the four kids would have a complete set of hones from 'ultra-coarse' to 'ultra-fine'. The other two would each get a durn-fine finisher.

By the way....I found a small and not too expensive 'tiger striped' coticule on ebay this weekend. That'll scratch the itch.

And to bring the skill up to snuff, I'll be honing my razor every second shave. Not that it will need it. But I want to specifically practice razor honing and stropping.

You need more razors then!

Originally Posted by bill3152

You need more razors then!

Well OF COURSE I need more razors!

I think the hard part about it all as far as hones go is to have the patience to learn how to use them one at a time. Not something that I was able to do. As far as grit ratings go even for synthetics, there are so many variables as was said. And the naturals are much more so.

I'm not going to address the grit issues as it raises more controversy than the issue of tape on the spine. But I would go with the nagura suggestion. I have had great success going to my finisher after an 8K synthetic with a progression of nagura and I have only been using this set up for a couple weeks. And the nagura seem to be a lot cheaper than buying additional base stones. In my very limited experience thus far, there is no need for any bridge between 8k and the finisher other than the nagura. If you are not convinced, you might contact Maksim at JNS and ask him for a stone that suits your intentions. The acquisition of stones in this hobby seems inevitable to some degree. But if you chase a good edge, not stones, you might be able to save yourself. LOL. I have a 12K, a Welsh, and a Zulu grey. And I have used all of them to get decent edges with varying degrees of sucess/failure. But they were rarely like the ones I experienced when sending my razors to a professional to be honed. The nagura set up gets me in that neighborhood. In the end, stones appear to have limitations as to what they can deliver. Once you find one that does what you are looking for in terms of the edge, you know where you need to spend your time. Now I'm more interested in squeezing more out of each nagura or maybe adding another at some point to see what effect a different slurry can produce. I just wish I had more razors that needed to be honed so I could play around with it a bit more!

The thing I *really* want to figure out is what, exactly, a strop does. I was looking at Ron's Hock's "teh perfect edge" and was fascinated by the micrographs.

That leads naturally into what may literally be a $64,000 question: is there a natural stone that can make the strop un-neccesary? Don't ask me why this fascinates me. I have no idea.

How'dja like the Zulu Grey?

Originally Posted by jgjgjg

The thing I *really* want to figure out is what, exactly, a strop does. I was looking at Ron's Hock's "teh perfect edge" and was fascinated by the micrographs.

That leads naturally into what may literally be a $64,000 question: is there a natural stone that can make the strop un-neccesary? Don't ask me why this fascinates me. I have no idea.

How'dja like the Zulu Grey?

There are a multitude of threads on here about exactly what it does and even more really good Micro Pics..

There are conflicting studies done also on the effect on the edge, some very respected ones, what is lacking is PROOF

Every SR user knows it does something good to the feel of the edge, many people who hone will test edges directly off the hones to get a feel for that edge, I have never read of any of them retiring their strops

There are many explanations out there and I am sure you will find one that works for you, mine is the term "Burnishing" I like to think of that when I strop the razor "I am burnishing the edge" it makes me smile when I strop

Originally Posted by jgjgjg

The thing I *really* want to figure out is what, exactly, a strop does. I was looking at Ron's Hock's "teh perfect edge" and was fascinated by the micrographs.

That leads naturally into what may literally be a $64,000 question: is there a natural stone that can make the strop un-neccesary? Don't ask me why this fascinates me. I have no idea.

How'dja like the Zulu Grey?

If you really do have a case of HAD, PM me and I'll be willing to sell you my 11X3 Zulu at a great price. The edges from the Zulu are what everyone says they are, very velvety smooth and very comfortable. Overall, I prefer a very keen edge and I'm not sure that the Zulu delivers that to my taste. One thing I learned from teh Zulu is that it gives you nothing on the house. If you have a razor that notoriously is difficult to hone or does not usually take the best of edges, don't expect the Zulu to sort that out for you. As you might expect, I got the best edges from it on razors that were known to produce great edges to begin with. My Revisor liked it, my Friodurs liked it, and even a few no names liked it. But my Hart ( a razor that gives me fits) predictably did not. For those razors, synthetics were a better option. It does provide a very different feel that some really love. When I stopped trying to get it to do what it apparently is not good at, I found the edges to be better if not exactly what I was looking for. Same thing for my 12K SS. I kept on trying to get that last level of keenness out of it and was pushing it too far. My edges started to break down and get harsh. I've learned to be very cautious with the use of that stone now. It can deliver what it can deliver and the razor plays a big role in the outcome. The Zulu is great is you enjoy a mellow smooth feel. Its high on comfort that's for sure.

Glen, so you hit the nail on the head on why I find the question so fascinating. Some background. Although I've always carried a knife, I really zero idea what 'sharp' was until Paul Sellers @ Homestead Heritage turned the light on for me. He would sharpen with a DMT red (dry) followed by a chromeox strop he'd made from an old belt. Now, when he stropped he looked like a terrier digging out a prairie dog hole. I mean, he went after it! The man was all about speed and 'economy' and is in every way a master of his craft.

I did that for a while, then discovered Shaptons and abandoned my strop. Then I discovered Lee Valley 1/4 micron diamond film, and that went to the station to the right of my 8k shapton. Then I discovered JNATS, right about the time I discovered straight razors (thank you 'art of manliness'). Now, the shaptons and film have a little platform over them on which sits the jnats. And they are lonely. All through this, my blades have gotten sharper. Admittedly, the transition from film to jnats bought me a little extra bit of goodness for a lot of scratch. But...it bought a little extra bit nonethless.

But now, I'm learning straights, and I'm back full circle to the strop. As you have pointed out, there is copious and contradictory evidence, supporting countless theories.

The situation raises a few questions:

1. What does is it tell us that micrographs have not definitively settled the issue?
2. What is stropping material always fibrous? Is "fibrous" a pre-condition of stropping? Or is it a coincidence that everything with 'give' is fibrous?
3. Is 'soft' the key aspect of stropping? For example, why doesn't a 1/2 micron (30k) grit stone do the same thing as 1/2 micron paste?

Many "etc's?". Maybe I should call up an old professor...