Thread: Nakayama Maruka jnat. Genuine or Fake?

Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

The Maruka had more flaws, but being the softer stone I felt I could use it for slurry if all else failed.

After lapping the flaws on the Maruka improved greatly. I have only honed two razors with these stones, but am very satisfied so far. The Okudo White is actually a great finisher.
I feel these are genuine, but with flaws that make them less desirable.

Yes, the first stone is genuine jnat, but not Nakayama Maruka. Because it is not from Nakayama mine indeed.
Check the topic http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ps-2013-a.html for details on Nakayama.

The second one is genuine Suita jnat, but I am in doubt that it is Okudo.

So it's better to call first one as pseudo-Maruka or fake-Maruka.
And the second one just as Suita jnat.

If someone buys a stone from that person and it's a good stone for $45, they should expect the stamp to be fake, but be very happy to have a good stone for $45.

Originally Posted by Nikolay

Yes, the first stone is genuine jnat, but not Nakayama Maruka. Because it is not from Nakayama mine indeed.
Check the topic http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ps-2013-a.html for details on Nakayama.

The second one is genuine Suita jnat, but I am in doubt that it is Okudo.

So it's better to call first one as pseudo-Maruka or fake-Maruka.
And the second one just as Suita jnat.

Thanks, I just reported the stones to ebay as fake. I checked the stamps in Alex's post http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ps-2013-a.html.

I can see the difference now. I did not when I originally looked the stamp up.

Originally Posted by DaveW

If someone buys a stone from that person and it's a good stone for $45, they should expect the stamp to be fake, but be very happy to have a good stone for $45.

Sorry, DaveW I can't agree with you.

If the stones were represented to me as fake but good stones, I would have most likely not bought them. I would probably have waited for a single TRUE stone and purchased it alone.

I shop carefully for vintage razors, and occasionally find a great purchase on a choice razor. I recently bought a Wusthof for $10, and previously bought a Wade and Butcher Barbers Only for about $50 dollars.

I was very pleased with those purchases. The razors were not in NOS shape and needed to be restored, but I knew that when I made my bids. I certainly did not expect those razors to be fake.

If I later found that these were counterfeit Gold Dollars, I certainly would not be pleased that they honed up well and gave great shaves.

This was a learning experience then - your entry fee into the hobby, I personally would never expect to find any good stone (totally without stamp or any indication of where it came from at all) for $45 and assume that it came from mt. atago or anywhere close to it.

You can return the stone and likely get your money back (if you did buy stones), but if I got one with a fake stone for $45 and it turned out to be a legitimate razor finisher, and I suspected that it came from anywhere on mt. atago, it would be a super deal.

Getting a maruka stamped razor finisher for $45 is akin to getting a recent les paul standard for $200. A person new to guitars may think they were finding a hidden vein of deals, but anyone with any experience would know the origin wasn't tennessee. Buyer beware, except if I got a $200 les paul copy and it was capable, I would be ecstatic with that, too.

EDIT: I just reviewed and see you bought two and feel you're happy with their honing. It's possible the suita not be okudo, and it may not be, but if they are good hones aside from not being genuine, this is one of those situations where the dealer is crooked (in my opinion) but you still got your money's worth. I'm not defending the practice. You will probably never know if it's actually okudo, there are multiple sellers (some of them reputable) selling grayish okudo suitas with more okudo-ish coloration on the skin. The classic high dollar okudo suitas have a more creamy color, and less grayish. But if tomonori, Takeshi kuroda and Aoki are all selling gray okudo suitas, you have a chance that they are just selling off the stones that miners cast aside at one point, or veins they left alone due to coloration.

Anyway, in the world of necessity, it would literally take one decent stone to provide a lifetime of shaves on a properly prepared razor. To be able to do that for a couple of $20s is cheaper in comparison than the cost of a decent hone in the early 1900s and late 1800s when they were competitively sold ($2-$3 back then - the cost of many of those hones - would've been a day's wage).

Alright Dave, I see you're right. When it comes to Jnats I'm just a babe in the woods.

I got so angry for two reasons.

#1 I HATE being lied too.

#2 My razors were on those stones. The horrors that could have happened flashed through my mind. I thought I was going to pass out.

(Ok, it wasn't quite that dramatic, but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to)

Yeah, we've all been through it. Several years from now, you'll be watching someone else having the same issue. As long as there's money to be made with fakes, there will be fakes. what's surprising to me is that the person who is doing the listing must be crooked enough that they are doing nothing at all to hide it.

Other stones that I have seen that I believe to be fakes are often very similar in characteristics to the hatanaka stamped stones (very uniform in color, fine and well finished with few flaws), and those you stand to lose a lot of money if you miss something for a stamp (because a seller will have tried to sell it as a real maruka for something more like 2/3rds the price of a true maruka).

I remember when I first got into woodworking, everything I bought, there was a guy who was a tool dealer who would say "you bought junk, they saw you coming from a mile away". I don't want to come across like that, on the contrary I think it's something where you get lied to and you don't get what you expected but what you get may still be good. If you feel the surface of a faked stone and it feels fairly smooth with your fingers, you may need to use your usual finish, but that's about it.

You also have free license now to lap those and do as you see fit with them, really learn them, because you know you're not wasting away a fine jewel.

Here's my example of where I was had. when I started woodworking, there was a retailer (lee valley) that was selling what IIRC were marginal imanishi stones. they were $45-$50 per. I got one, and I thought it was better than it was. It was actually a good pre finisher. They were marketed as being closeout of stones that would otherwise cost a lot of money.

The reality of it was, I bought one and I convinced a friend to buy two. Well, mine was a bit soft and not that fine (but not small) and the two he got were very small and very slow cutting. He wasn't happy with it, so out of guilt, I took the two he got (and paid him for them) and gave them away with other stones that I sold along the way. Of course, I was selling those other stones at a loss, too, so it stung.

I sold the third that I had bought (that was a reasonably nice pre-finisher) along with a chinese hone in the classifieds here, and i think I may have asked for about $30 each for the pair.

None of the stones that I had bought in that group were suitable for razors. None were really suitable for tools as finishers, either. Along the way, I also got several other more expensive stones that turned out not to be that great (as in $150-$400) and while they were OK, I had to take a huge loss unloading them, or I would've been no better than the person who sold them to me.

Thus the comment about you being had by a crooked seller, but still getting your money's worth.

Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

Admittedly, I purchased 2 of these stones (no decent pics at the moment). These are my first Jnats. I did me research and could see some of the stones have seams and pits. I had to try at that price.

It is not a flaw for Suita to have pits. Su actually is a reference to 'holes'.

Sunashi suita = Suita with no holes or only micro holes so if you buy Sunashi suita with pits it is an inaccurate description otherwise expect 'holes' in your Suita.

Cheap Suita are not really for razors.

Suita with holes can cause trouble I hear as your botan can come out of the hole when you are using your koma! LOL. My ozaki suita has no holes but lots of non toxic lines. The argument whether a stone is real or not can never be resolved unless you dug the stone out yourself. Its he said, she said. buy from a reputable dealer that will accept a return or exchange. Then you wont get burned even if the stamps are fake. And sometimes the stamps are real but the stone is a fake.

The best bet is become educated about these stones before you buy them or buy from a vendor with a long reputation beyond reproach.

otherwise you're like the amateur gold prospector who finds "fools gold" and thinks he has struck it rich.

Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

If the stones were represented to me as fake but good stones, I would have most likely not bought them. I would probably have waited for a single TRUE stone and purchased it alone.

Do you mind me asking why this is? This is still a Jnat although the origin unknown.. unless you buy from a reputable vendor, If you had have waited and paid 10-20x the price, on eBay there is still no guarantee the stone would have been better without testing it first.. This would mean that you have a stone much more expensive that may be exactly the same or worse for a lot more money...

Those are nice looking stones, i know they weren't what you were expecting although if they hone nicely and improve your edge it would be a shame to let them go for the price you paid.. If they don't hone well send them back..

As mentioned by Oz, the holes can be expected for Suita stones... although they aren't always a problem unless they are toxic. The only way to find this out would be to lap the hell out of the stone, see if you can get it past the Su as much as you can and see if the stones breaks away where the holes were.

Have you managed to get a good edge off them? Is the Su toxic? Does any off the stone break away when honing? And have you tried lapping the stone past the Su?

BTW: 'Some' of my best jnats have cost me under $100. Cheap stones can be very inconsistent although you can get a bargain every now and then. Trouble is you really need something to compare the stone too or you have no way of knowing what is good or not. This is where the venders come in handy as they do the testing for you, for a first stone its really the only way to go.