Thread: Whipped Dog "Quarter Nortons"

Originally Posted by Tarkus

I don't get it. Do people think that there getting a bargain with the small hunk? Because to me where is the savings. It still a pricey rock considering its practicality useless now. Can you say throwing good money after bad?

Than I'll explain:
I know NOTHING about honing.
Ask me anything you want about music or coffee, but honing is still far beyond my knowledge.
And for someone who knows nothing about honing, when I see a Norton set for a price I can afford, I'm naturally drawn to it. Let me not be mistaken - I wasn't blinded by it, just wondered either buying this set is throwing good money or bad. And apparently it paid off asking first, because now I know that the size of a hone is not something one can sacrifice.
As for the bargain - it was never a question of how much I can save. It was (and still is) a question of what I can afford.

So I didn't get a hone out of asking here, butI got to see (again) what a great community there's here, got to interact with some very nice people and most importantly - I learned something new :]

Originally Posted by Haim

Than I'll explain:
I know NOTHING about honing.
Ask me anything you want about music or coffee, but honing is still far beyond my knowledge.
And for someone who knows nothing about honing, when I see a Norton set for a price I can afford, I'm naturally drawn to it. Let me not be mistaken - I wasn't blinded by it, just wondered either buying this set is throwing good money or bad. And apparently it paid off asking first, because now I know that the size of a hone is not something one can sacrifice.
As for the bargain - it was never a question of how much I can save. It was (and still is) a question of what I can afford.

So I didn't get a hone out of asking here, butI got to see (again) what a great community there's here, got to interact with some very nice people and most importantly - I learned something new :]

I think I could direct you to a couple products to look at if I knew your budget. I've actually been working on a guide for starting out very inexpensively for guys like you and I who love straights but can't afford the "top shelf " products.

1/2 of a Norton would be survivable possibly but aren't they 8 inch stones? Meaning you'll be honing on a 2" stone...even at 10" you'd only have a 2.5" stone....5"+ are all I ever work with otherwise its way slow...a quartered Norton would be a slurry stone in my opinion.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

+1. I don't do anything but X strokes, rolling X, unless it is circles or 'back and forth' while bevel setting. I don't know anyone who would do 'straight strokes' since the hone may have a certain amount of irregularity even shortly after a fresh lapping.

If the hone doesn't, there's a decent chance that the razor will.

As far as the sizes go, when people honed razors for a living (talking about barbers) regularly, and the market was professionals for the choice stones, and not us deep pocketed amateurs, they knew what size they needed. (speaking of the 5x2, 5x2.5, etc). Going smaller than what they used when people generally didn't buy more than they needed is suboptimal.

Could I or anyone else hone a razor with a quarter of a bench stone? Sure. Would I want to purchase an inexpensive razor off of ebay that needed significant work and use it with these small stones? Definitely not.

I'd rather have something inexpensive, like the sometimes sets of old king stones that pop up on ebay (like an 800 and a 6000 or 8000) for cheap and if inexpensive doesn't go fine enough, there are tons of stones that do.

Originally Posted by WetShaveObsession

This is what I did and is working well for me. Is it for everyone or even good advice, I dont know. What I do know is this, Im no honemeister by any means, that being said I have been able to achieve good edges that shave very well and even look pretty darn good under a 40x loupe.
If you are on a budget, ebay can be your friend, ebay and patience that is. I got stones that some would consider not the best (putting it mildly) but there are 2 places I made sure I got quality but I was even able to get them at a great price, but some work by me was required. My finishing stone is a 12000 natural stone out of california. Its actually somewhere from 12000-13000. I bought it for $35 BUT I had to spend about an 45minutes total lapping both sides of it. Now I prob could have just lapped one side and been done but that doesnt suit my ocd nature and I dont think thats the best way to go. So what I have is a good quality (IMO) finishing stone but I had to invest some sweat equity to have it. I also made sure I got a good flattening stone (and actually found a cheap solution later that probably would have worked as well). I bought a norton flattening stone that has one small corner broken of. It was brand new, just one corner was gone. It is perfectly usable and I paid $9.99 for it. Best $10 I ever spent.
So what I have is a 400/1000, a 2000/5000 and 8000 and my 12k finisher and the norton flattening. I shopped and negotiated hard, was patient and paid Under $200 for all of them. The stones are not small - that would have made things too difficult IMO (which is why I would not purchase the proposed stone in the OP) The stones, while they may not be the best in many peoples eyes, are impeccably maintained. I always make sure they are flat, I take great care of them, in turn they are working very well for me. I have since acquired a diamond combination 220/600 that I use when I have to deal with a serious frown in an vintage blade. I also acquired and probably could have gotten in place of the norton flattening stone and 8x8 diamond lapping plate. Both of these were dirt cheap but for as often as I use them they suit my needs. I also picked up a Boss Barbers Hone that was in the box for $20. I got this well mainly because I just wanted it and it was still in the box. I havent quite figured out where it fits in yet. It seems to leave an edge like my 8k does but it achieves it faster than my 8k. It is not a part of my honing routine, I mainly got it as I wanted a vintage barbers hone, I could , however ,see someone economically working one of these in in place of maybe an 8k if they absolutely had too but it is kind of a gamble as you dont rally know where these fall in on the abrasive scale until you use them. Id suspect they are mostly from 5k-9k but that is speculation.
My stones are a bit of an odd combo. I dont really use the 400. I wouldnt have to use the 2000, but I do. The meat and potatoes are the 1000 for setting/resetting bevel, the 5000 / 8000 / 12000. Many times If I buy a razor in good shape with a proper bevel I have found I can get by with 5000/8000/12000 - crox on leather / plain strop. I call it my get lucky hone. Sometimes I do it and I get lucky and it works like a charm.
My entire point is I spent under $200 and have a honing set up that is in all reality honing way more razors than I ever thought I would be and doing it well. At some point would I like to get a good quality 4000/8000 - sure I would, but the nice thing is I dont HAVE too. I can do it when I can comfortably do it as my honing set up is working and working well for me.
Did I waste money ? I dont think so. I could in all honesty, use these stones for a long time. In fact in all likelihood I will. I understand the idea of quality and I most often go the route of saving up and buying top quality, or the best quality I can reasonably afford. In this case I didn't. However I was patient, I negotiated prices, I got quality where I thought it was most important and wasn't afraid to do some work on my own to have a good stone to work with. All those things combined have me with a honing set up I am more than pleased with at the present time and the results are working for me and even for a few others I have honed razors for to date.
Right /wrong...good way to go...bad way to go...I dont know. I know I am personally happy and it is working.

Not to play the one ups game. But I get hht passing results off a honing set up that costs less than 100$.

I use the king 1k/6k combo 45$, the c12k from woodcraft for 25, and CrOx on linen that was maybe 15 together.

Like you I'm no honemeister but I get vary shaveable results off a git up that cost me 85$ total.

So I guess I agree that you can get good results with inexpensive set-ups.

Not trying to go against the grain here. Just think sometimes its not worth going for top shelf gear if you can't afford it.

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents here, precisely because I don't know much about honing. As a matter of fact most of what I know about honing I learned from guys who have already said their piece on this thread. People are too quick to write Larry off as some kind of thief. He's just offering options for people on a budget. 4x2 hones are not "stupid". I've seen a member of this forum using a barber's hone that was no bigger that 4x2, using exaggerated but amazingly fluid strokes, while talking to me, and mostly looking me in the eye while he was doing it.

But

He had obviously done it hundreds if not thousands of times. As a beginner it is all I can do to hold a razor stable with a full width hone supporting it. I may well pick up one of Larry's quarter hones one day for traveling, but I'm going to need a lot more experience before I'll able to keep the razor flat on one and use it effectively. As one beginner to another, I'd really recommend saving up for the full sized hone.

Well, it's not 4x2 hones he's offering, it's 4x something less than 1.5" if they are a quarter of the hone. The width below 2" makes a pretty substantial difference. I don't know where he's getting $80 hones to turn into 4 $30 stones, but he's not going to get rich doing it, so I wouldn't call him a thief, either.

I personally wouldn't want them, though. If I was going for pure razor maintenance, I'd spend the $30 on a *good* vintage razor hone or a chinese stone instead. Both would be bigger and both would do well for maintenance. Restoration is another topic entirely, and I wouldn't want to use less than full sized hones to set bevels on ebay or flea market finds.

At any rate, someone's got to offer the "gateway drug" items to new shavers, like inexpensive strops, etc. I don't know if star shaving is still in business, but that was my gateway vendor when I didn't know if I wanted to spend much. And after that, I found more satisfaction in making my own stuff than trying to buy it (much cheaper) but I don't know if the average person is going to want to go to the trouble of sourcing leather, etc, and cutting it and making fixtures.

I'd rather, though, let the market decide which seller stays and which goes, as long as they're not doing something nefarious and making grandiose false claims. W/D certainly isn't doing that.

Originally Posted by WetShaveObsession

My finishing stone is a 12000 natural stone out of california. Its actually somewhere from 12000-13000. I bought it for $35

I always like natural finishing hones, what kind of stone is this? I didn't know california had natural hones to offer, so I'm curious.

I personally think most people here are a bid causious with there advice, we all know there are manny ways leading to Rome, but when a beginner asks for directions we all point towards the highway, which has it's logic but there is some over reaction when someone points out other ways to get there, if we wanted the easiest way we would have continued shaving with an electrical razor.

I don't think the quarter hones are the way to go but I think it will get you there, I started with a 4 X 1,5 inch coticule hone which would be the same size as these quarter hones, no one here would have recommended this path but I'm glad I took it

Originally Posted by Bram

Snip....
I don't think the quarter hones are the way to go but I think it will get you there, I started with a 4 X 1,5 inch coticule hone which would be the same size as these quarter hones, no one here would have recommended this path but I'm glad I took it

Or will it make the threshold just that much harder, possibly making a new honer give up on honing and/or straight razors?
Who knows?
And why risk that?

I'm happy that you managed to learn on a Coticule that size.
Good for you, and proof that one can in fact skin a cat in a whole lot of different ways

As to why you are glad you started on one is more unclear to me.
And more to the point, is that the one you still hone on, and if not, why did you change up for a more properly sized one?

We all know that we don't use much more than the first inch or so on any sized hone, but the loss in stability is simply not something to disregard lightly.
It can be the breaking point, and I for one would hate to have someone leave our sport/hobby based on faulty advise.
In my opinion, that is simply what I see it as, faulty advise.

So, I am sorry, but I fail to see the whole philantropic motives or whatever you wanna call it for offering such a deal.
It's business, simple as that.
As a retailer I'd venture to say one would get that hone in the $50s range, perhaps even lower depending on actual volume.
(None of us really believes a retailer buys and sells them with zero profit now do we?)
Two cuts later it will yield a profit of say $60-70 at the least.
Not a bad idea, profit-wise.
Then again, not such a great idea for a new honer.

That is my personal take on this, and I suppose my final words on the topic.
This horse has been whipped enough, no pun intended

I see your point and it has been discussed at enough length indeed. but to answer your question:

yes, I stil use it for most of my honing progression although I did get a Les Latneuses bout for the final touch (this one is about the same size actually), I do use both hands to stabalize my SR and use a friction pat underneath my hone to keep it in place.

The thing I did realy need to change was the addition of a bevel setter, I realized this after a few restore projects.

As to why I'm glad I took that path, I'm thinking about it... lets see:
1. the costs involved (I'm still a student and can't afford that much yet), this litle coti was ~€40
2. I like the splash and go nature of the coticule and other natural hones
3. again monetary, second hand coticules on Ebay go for about the same price as the ones bought new from ardennes, it comes close to a money back garanty

and I guess I've kind of fallen in love with my coti.

the choice for a small coti instead of a 8" X 3" coti is a change in price of paying €40,- instead of €353,-
where the OP's choice between the different sizes is a change in price of paying $60 instead of $140,-

so I guess the choice to go with a small hone made more sense in the case of the coticule