Thread: Natural Stones: Japanese vs. Jasper vs. Novaculite vs. Chinese Agate/Faux Jade?

At a lower magnification, I'd agree. At this magnification, the edges are very similar (based on their ability to sever hairs - the shave tomorrow morning will describe more). The idea of aiming for no metal particles at the edge at all under any magnification (and without stropping of any type) is a myth that would be achieved only if you had ended just on the stroke that reaches the edge on both sides, or if using a type of stone that cuts narrow deep grooves and leaves no organized wire edge. Some formation of a wire edge is a product of any stone working at the edge, even if it's just small particles like these were and not an organized burr like you'd have on a knife.

The aggressive bevel setter doesn't apply here, any work from a bevel setting stone has long since been honed off and the bevel is completely in plane with the stone with no pressure on the razor.

In terms of the dennert edge with a lot of linen work, there simply is no natural stone used under any conditions that will match or improve that edge, unless one would use one of those hones sparingly and not actually work all of the way to the edge, leaving the illusion that the stone has done super fine linen-type work just because the super fine linen type work is still there. A good linen will improve any stone, and also result in better edges off of the leather than straight from the stone. None of the current substitutes for linen that I've tried actually do that.

If any novaculite hone would ever be seen to have results looking like the dennert edge (with almost nothing there), it would be a case of lower magnification or lack of light to reflect off of the work of the novaculite hone. No matter how low the pressure and how good the technique, they're simply not as fine as either of these two stones. The best you can hope for them is to break a surface in on one as much as possible, and at the same time, have it as clean as possible.

In terms the amount of light, it may also be making the pictures misleading. This scope has LED lights at the lens, and the lens is almost right on the bevel, facing directly into it, as opposed to better lighting that's either more even or not facing right into the bevel. It's of this type:

Amazon.com: USB Digital Computer Microscope: Computers & Accessories

I'll concede that looking at the pictures, just strictly from visuals, it does look like the japanese stone has done a better job. But it doesn't so far appear that it's really as material as the pictures look, and judging from the first shave I had off of this stone, it was very similar to the ozaki, and far more keen than any novaculite honed razor I've used.

(we are sort of, also, getting away from the original reason I started posting this, which was to suggest to anyone considering the chinese green stones that they're not that great, and if cost is an issue, there are other options in stones).

Jasper shave report - can't edit the post that I made yesterday morning, it's just over 24 hours ago.

The shave off of the jasper stone was relatively indistinguishable from the japanese stone. I maybe shaved ATG with the japanese stone a tiny bit easier, but I could also be imagining that. Either way, the jasper is perfectly capable of maintaining the razor at a high level, especially once leather is involved, and linen (which wasn't used) would only improve the situation.

After shaving this morning, I went out of order and honed the razor on novaculite. Specifically, the black translucent stone from natural whetstone. I have about a dozen novaculite stones, and this one is the most dense of all of them (at about 2.9 specific gravity). The least dense translucent or black that I have is 2.6 specific gravity, and the difference in how close the particles are packed on one vs. the other is actually pretty significant.

Hone routine was 50 strokes with WD-40 and 150 with as close to the razor only weight as possible with a light mineral oil (the stone cuts finer on light mineral oil than on WD40):



Here's two pictures of the resulting edge (they look about the same).





The bevel looks very scratchy on this stone, and I have to guess that the difference between this picture and tim zowada's is probably light reflection. The edge is still fairly uniform and this razor straight off of the stone easily catches a hair, and splits and and then severs it. Leather will make it nicer to use.

Pressure on novaculite is always more critical (to be as light as possible), and unlike the jasper and japanese hone earlier in this post, care has to be taken to notice any novaculite particles that break loose because they sometimes break loose in clumps, that may only be 10 or 20 microns in size, but those particles loose on the surface of a stone can really damage a razor.

Same as before, remember this is at 200x magnification, so what looks like a very scratchy edge here is a semi-bright polish to the naked eye.

I've shaved off of this stone before (with a good, keen, sharp feeling shave) and chose it because it's the finest one that I have. It would cut finer if it had several hundred razors through it, but I have a problem of excess and would rather use novaculites for tools and knives.

This stone came new from the dealer with a fairly coarse cut or lapped edge on it that is unsuitable for a razor. it is a better idea when buying one of these new to buy a junk chisel or plane iron and work the surface continually for a few minutes, then apply oil and wipe it off (to remove particles) and then work the surface with a plane iron again, alternating between working the surface and removing the particles until the stone seems seems to be cutting very fine. Then hone a razor on it and continue to wipe the oil off until the oil that ends up on top of the razor shows pure and clean with no particles.

One of the people who got me into straight razor shaving has been using horse leather, a single black arkansas stone (both for his tools and razors) and has been using the same razor and same stone for 40 years, where the tools have conditioned the stone to be very fine cutting and worn in, and technique in flattening the backs of tools keeps the stone flat.

Cost of this stone: $119 + shipping.

Will report on the shave off of this stone tomorrow.

EDIT: Shave was acceptable, but not up to par with the jasper stone or japanese stone. This razor, however, would be improved greatly by the linen, which I have abstained from using. It is also much keener than it was when I got it, despite being advertised by the seller as "shave ready" (I don't ever factor that into what I pay, so it doesn't matter), it's just short of the novaculite and japanese hone edge. I've not looked at a novaculite edge under this crappy hand held microscope before, but something isn't quite adding up. This is my densest finest stone, but I'm forgetting something or someone else did something to it on loan. I'll use a stone that's not been loaned out and redo novaculite at the end of this, perhaps several.

Chinese stone pictures tonight after I hone on the chinese stone, which was the original motivation for this thread - my opinion before honing is that I have not been impressed with the chinese hone for tools, and it's broken in plenty to get a good idea of where it is. The fact that the novaculite is coming up just short of what I'd like will give it a chance to prove whether or not it can improve an edge.

So what is a dennert edge?

The best solution for economy honing for a novice is inexpensive, proven synthetic stones, e.g., the Super Stones, or film.

To recommend a natural stone to a novice honer leads to frustration and usually a more costly learning process. An inexpensive, untested hone is false economy.

Don’t get me wrong, as a long time stone collector I understand the chase, but naturals are natural and almost any two are not alike, they can’t be, they are natural there is no quality control.

Your jasper, whatever the reason, does appear from your photos to be chipping the edge. As suggested some 45 degree photos will clarify the issue.
The edge off your Ark stone appears much straighter and less chippy than your Jasper edge.

As you have said, your ark can still be improved with more hard steel applied to it. I have been shaving off Ark edges for over 40 years from the same stones, they are capable of producing fine edges.

More importantly, the shave… is all that counts.

Dennert is the maker of the white handled razor. The razor that I'm testing, though, is a razor branded "es-ese", which I've never heard of, but it's a relatively nice razor.

I'm not quite sure, actually, why that (novaculite) stone is as scratchy as it is in the photo. I loaned it to someone who wanted to try it out (to see if he wanted to buy one) and he may have lapped it, though he claimed he didn't. Still, the edge appears to be decent quality.

In terms of recommendations, I'd still stick with a japanese stone as a first natural finisher, though on the less collectible side and from a dealer with a decent reputation. I've seen a lot of stones that are very plain looking for $500, etc, and there's a knife dealer in the states selling what would've otherwise been cast-aside stones (very soft type stones) for several hundred dollars each. I guess there is demand.

I don't think the jasper is a bad way to go, though, but it has to be biggs or owyhee. I've got two of each, and all four stones are about the same level of fineness. The two owyhee jaspers I have are more similar than any other pair of natural stones that I have (bought at different times from different sellers), and same for the two biggs.

Pictures aside, from the shave, it is a decent razor hone. Slabs can sometimes be had on straight up auction for a dollar or two dollars, at the most from a scrupulous buyer, $15 or so. They are not a beginner hone, you are correct. They need to be prepared, too - none come in geometrically desirable bricks.

Edited my prior post to comment on the shave from the novaculite. There are two things I'm going to do again when done with the chinese hone, and the first is to go through my novaculite stones and find one that I know I haven't loaned out (and know thus that it's completely broken in) - I should get a shave that's closer to the japanese stone and jasper, and the shave this morning was acceptable, but not like the shaves on the japanese and jasper were. At this point, all three shaves were keener than any razor that I've ever gotten "shave ready", but shave ready doesn't necessarily mean sharp.

Pictures of the chinese stone honed razor will come tonight or tomorrow after I hone it.

I'll redo the jasper again later, too, and see if the same anomalies happen at the edge, and if they do, try to get a 45 degree shot with the microscope I'm using.

I have puzzled over the use of natural stones over synthetic stones for some time. I just struggle to grasp why someone would use something that firstly may be a dud and why would you not just buy something you know will work and you know exactly what grit size you are getting.........BUT people sware by the feel of the edge they get off these natural stones so there must be something in it.

Looking at those edge images and images in general of edges off natural stones, they all seem to have the occasional deeper scratch here and there and that got me thinking. The Japanese sushi chef's have a term "the blade is running". It happens when the knife edge gets too polished and instead of slicing into the fish it scates over the flesh instead of slicing in so in this scenario extremely small micro chips are actually desirable.

Now I know razors are not knives and that they are essentially push cutters and not slicing tools but there is some slicing motion going on.

What I am thinking is that these natural stones are kicking out the odd particle that is bigger than the rest which causes small micro chips in the blade edge. The extent of these rogue particles is the difference between a good stone and a bad stone from the same stock. I am thinking that these occasional microchips are helping with the shave by catching hairs before the rest of the blade cuts it. This effect would not happen on a synthetic stone.

What are your thoughts on this ?

The biggest reason I use natural stones is because of how sparing they are with a razor, and once you get a good one and get used to it, it's a single self contained unit that doesn't change geometry of a blade or have pigment powders or little diamond powders everywhere. For some reason, they are right at about the right sharpness for me to get easy hair removal, but to not get anything like weepers (which I will get if i do something nutty, like use 0.1 micron iron oxide powder).

Because of woodworking, I've tried just about everything, and I do use synthetics generally on a new-to-me razor, though a natural progression starting with a washita stone is very fast for anything other than mass material removal.

It's my opinion that the grooves are shallower from a natural stone, any of the type discussed in this thread, and shallower grooves make for a more comfortable edge at a given level of sharpness. I don't know if that's really true or not, but it sounds good.

Anyway, the other benefit is the ozaki stone first used in this thread has been in my cabinet for a couple of years. It will work for a lifetime. 5 minutes use at most once every 3 to 6 months. it works the same way every time. I've got a whole bunch of stones, but after this test, and for every razor that I ever get that's dialed in, it'll just get maintained on that stone.

I don't think an edge can be too uniformly perfect, so I'm not sure the desire for a tiny bit of tooth on a meat knife can be cross referenced. In reality, I think that the scratches that look deep are still fairly small scratches (invisible to the naked eye and then some) and plenty sharp enough to cut hair easily, so they're not noticed. Some of them terminate or nearly terminate before reaching the edge, too.

And one final reason, I get an edge a little less keen with a sigma power 13k, shapton 15k, .... (the only stone I haven't tried is the gokumyo 20k, which may better the ozaki stone), and the linen and leather to me are more vital than a particular stone.

(I don't expect anyone else to share my opinions, btw. Ultimately, you can get any shaving acceptable stone to make a shaving acceptable edge, and to some extent - especially with naturals - success is a matter of familiarity).

Originally Posted by DaveW

Dennert is the maker of the white handled razor. The razor that I'm testing, though, is a razor branded "es-ese", which I've never heard of, but it's a relatively nice razor.

The "es-ex" should be very nice. After all it was made by C.F. Ern.
The flourish on the "x" does look like "se" but you should see an X over an S on other parts of the logo.

Good thread. I can see some of the chippiness that Euclid440 mentions in the initial pics but IME that may not be an issue for the shave. Most recent looks very improved.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

The "es-ex" should be very nice. After all it was made by C.F. Ern.
The flourish on the "x" does look like "se" but you should see an X over an S on other parts of the logo.

Good thread. I can see some of the chippiness that Euclid440 mentions in the initial pics but IME that may not be an issue for the shave. Most recent looks very improved.

Yes, visually it's definitely there in the pictures, but not the last one. A brand new jasper has a funny grippy feel from time to time, and I don't know if that's particles that aren't yet broken in (not free particles, but areas of the stone where they're fixed), or if the damage is caused by loose particles, or if it's just caused by the stone itself because it's not ideal.

This last session is still only the third razor this stone has seen since being lapped new. If I had any real fear about it, it would be that when it breaks in it will totally stop cutting, and as euclid440 mentioned, most of this stuff probably isn't very good for beginners. It may be that none of the stones here are, they're slow, and require a little bit of judgement.

Since the jasper is on water (my other owyee slab is on oil, and used for tools, but it could be cleaned off and tried), I may try it with a routing using a good quality tomonagura to speed it up a little and then follow that with a dilution like a japanese stone.

To me, having already spent the money, I definitely like a good japanese stone. It would be wonderful if someone would find these jaspers in large pieces and sell them cheaply in a hone shape, but that's not likely to happen - they'd just end up costing $100 or so for someone to go to the effort to find large bench stone sized pieces and then cut and polish the surface and then chamfer. The big slabs for $10 + shipping make for cheap experimentation.

I know I already mentioned it, but the engraver/jeweler/professional stone cutter who turned me on to biggs jasper swore by the true jaspers for use on engraving tools, each is apparently a little different (though the biggs and owyhee are both fine cutters with sharp particles), and some are not uniformly dense but somewhat porous.

Bottom line with all of these is that they will hold onto their particles and can be worn in and used with good effect with some experience. We talk a lot about the details online, and it drives us a little nutty trying to explain things that are subtle, easy and unspoken with some experience.

Thanks for letting me know who made my razor, btw. I was a little miffed at having spent $60 on it when I got it, but it's turned out to be a really lovely shaver and it likes the natural stones.

Two things,

1. The simplest way to observe the relative density of areas in a piece jasper is to wet the stone evenly with water. The density of various sections will will be visibly observable by where water is absorbed first. The last areas to absorb water are the densest.

2. The fastest way to break in a hard hone is to burnish it with another hard stone. I do this with barber hones, arkys, ect.

Carry on.

Jonathan