Thread: How sharp is sharp?

Evening all,

I've been honing razors now for about a year. I can get an edge that gives a very good close shave. I have had a razor from an experienced honer and my finished edges match up. I went through a learning curve for the first eight months where I would find that my previous sharpest razor was superceded by the latest razor I had honed. For the last four months that hasn't happened. All my razors have great edges (except for my !@#$%^ Red Imp 132, but that's a different issue). My question is: Can you reach a stage where you can no longer improve an edge and if so, how do you know when you've reached that point? My progression is: Makita 1000# bevel setter, followed by Naniwa superstones 3000#, 8000# and 12000#. I then do 30 laps on 0.3 CrOx, 30 laps on 0.1 iron oxide and finish with about 60 laps on leather.

IMHO it is all about getting a close and comfortable shave. There are many rabbit holes you can follow to get to the next perfect edge or a new way to get to the perfect edge. There are many paths to shave nirvana, how many do you want to learn. You can choose from many natural paths, jnats, cotis, UK slates (both new and vintage) there are the famous German stones, French hones, the list goes on. You can be content with your edge and your shave and never move from it. As long as you are having fun and shaving as smoothly as you want, dude, you're there!

It seems to me, going by my own experience, that once you become proficient, you'll hit plateaus. IOW, in the beginning you achieve heights more often. Then you get to the stage where you'll seem to be at the same level of achievement for a while. Suddenly you find it has bumped up a notch or two without really feeling like you're doing anything different. That has been my experience anyway. Whether I'm as sharp as i can get, or just on another plateau waiting to climb higher, I couldn't say. The air is just fine at this level though.

First, it is not about a formula or recipe, X laps on X stone and Y laps on Y strop. You do what the blade and edge require.
Sharp begins with the bevel set. If the bevel is not properly set, chip free, straight and both bevels meeting the rest does not matter.

So what method are you using, to know when your bevel is set?

Once the bevel is set, it is just a matter of polishing the bevel and edge, removing the stria from the previous stone without damaging/chipping the edge.

Where are you getting your paste from?

Impure paste, excessive pressure or hard substrates are causes of chipping edges and uncomfortable shaves. Your paste jumps are rather large from the 12K and may not be doing enough to polish the edge. If you paste grit is as stated, you are going from 12K to 50-60K to 160K, rather large jumps.

How is the shave off the 12K with just linen and leather?

You have to break down you honing/stropping process and find out where the problem lies. Your stone progression looks ok, though I do not have any experience with the Makita 1K.

Lastly proper stropping is key, lifting the spine just once will ruin an edge, especially with paste.

From the moment the razor can give you a comfortable shave, it's sharp enough, and there is no reason to go beyond that.

Another interesting question is, when sharp is too sharp?
Too sharp to make your shave not enjoyable. And I'm not just talking about a "harsh" edge.
A few months ago I tried to hone a kamisori I have with its classic technique. For finisher I used a sigma 13k, 10 passes on 0.3 micron CeO and stropping on plain leather.
The result was, the skin of my face was bleeding without any visible cuts. After wiping the blood, it looked like I never bled, but my skin was very sensitive the next few days. It was just too darn sharp. And I have had similar experiences with my Jnats. That's why I finish my edges with thick slurry with them. As for the kamisori, coticules and Chinese stones are my preferred ones.

For your question, you'll need a good microscope. Look at the edge after the finisher, and again, after stropping on plain leather, under many angles. If you see signs of degradation after stropping, you've reached that point. Or something like that.
And, I don't think we are talking about the possibilities of steel. It's a shaving question, so, try different stones, pastes, leathers, and shave to see for yourself.
I have to warn you though that it will be a complete waste of time. If you like your shaves, stay with what you have.

Crazy sharp is easily obtained with lapping film. I messed around with it for awhile, but I cant shave with it, too harsh. Like raw skin after the shave. The only judge of the blades merits is you. Try some different things and see, unless what you have is good enough for you. There are lots of different hones to add in if you want to try something new. Eschers, jnats, cnat, slates, etc.

Thanks for all the replies. I gave a rough break down of my progression because I knew if I didn't someone was bound to ask for it! I don't think there is any problem with my honing/stropping process Euclid440, but the point about large jumps in grit size is appreciated. As I said, I can get a very nice edge and am aware of the pitfalls of honing/stropping. My question was: Does anyone know if it is possible to reach a point where a razor is so sharp that it can get no sharper and if so, is there some way of determining when that point has been reached. My gut tells me that the only way to judge this would be with a high mag microscope. I currently use a 400x and the edges are scratch free (more or less). In the end I believe the quality of the steel would be the deciding factor on just how sharp a razor can get, but if you had a razor of the best quality steel, surely there must come a point where it can get no sharper.

Your right about there been a point when you can go no further.

Steel can only go so far, And If you want to go higher then you have to start reducing the edge angle. At that point your edge has no strength and will disintegrate.

If you want a material that can go to ludicrous speed then you need to look into Obsidian.

Though not approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for use on humans, obsidian is used by some surgeons for scalpel blades, as well-crafted obsidian blades have a cutting edge many times sharper than high-quality steel surgical scalpels, the cutting edge of the blade being only about 3 nanometers thick.[35] Even the sharpest metal knife has a jagged, irregular blade when viewed under a strong enough microscope; when examined even under an electron microscope an obsidian blade is still smooth and even.

Obsidian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is no help to you but I am at a similar junction. I get every edge where I like it for shaving comfort. Do I need to buy the next stone? Probably, but do I need it? I have decided my quest for silent mowing of my hair is probably unnecessary. Close, comfortable and durable edges.

If you did reach crazy sharp, how long is it going to stay crazy sharp? The edge will be microscopically thin and fragile. Hecht. They are microscopically thin and fragile now.

Sharp enough to do the things you want to do without having to pull a razor through hard (cleanly cut hair around your lips and such, which is the first place I notice a dull razor), and sharp enough to get the shave as close as you want it to be. If it can take the hair off around your lips and chin first pass, it can probably shave against the grain fine.

With those things covered, the rest is just pleasing yourself by seeing how sharp you can get things.