Thread: What Do You Think About The Shapton 30K

Originally Posted by feltspanky

Isn't .49 microns and .5 microns essential the same partial size.

Yes, they don't use the same grit scales but microns are microns no matter what brand. AFAIK, Shapton uses a proprietary scale that's a little different from Naniwa (JIS) and both are a lot different than Norton.

Here's a useful table:

http://www.imcclains.com/productinfo...on%20Chart.pdf

Note the micron scale on the right.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Steve56

Yes, they don't use the same grit scales but microns are microns no matter what brand. AFAIK, Shapton uses a proprietary scale that's a little different from Naniwa (JIS) and both are a lot different than Norton.

Here's a useful table:

http://www.imcclains.com/productinfo...on%20Chart.pdf

Note the micron scale on the right.

Cheers, Steve

Thanks for the chart steve: I know the shapton glass stones use ceramic as their cutting medium. Does the 20K Suehiro also use ceramic or a different synthetic material. I visited the Tools From Japan website but it doesn't tell me the cutting strata.

Originally Posted by feltspanky

Thanks for the chart steve: I know the shapton glass stones use ceramic as their cutting medium. Does the 20K Suehiro also use ceramic or a different synthetic material. I visited the Tools From Japan website but it doesn't tell me the cutting strata.

You're welcome. If you mix brands it's a good reference. I think there's a similar table in the SRP Library.

I don't know what Suehiro uses in this line. I'd be interested to know too. But now this darned thread has me wanting to get a G15k to see how it compares to the G20k, which I don't use much! Talk about HAD.

Cheers, Steve

I know the feeling; This thread has me wanting to purchase a 20K Suehiro for comparison purposes. Does the S.R. cutlery addiction every stop ?

Originally Posted by feltspanky

I know the feeling; This thread has me wanting to purchase a 20K Suehiro for comparison purposes. Does the S.R. cutlery addiction every stop ?

No I don't believe it does lol.

If youre comparing the G20k to other synths, just get it (disclaimer, my synth experience is not great). If you're comparing it to JNat finishers, it does as we'll as some, not as well as others as far as smoothness goes. There's no shortage of sharp with either.

Try it and if you don't like it, it will sell quickly at what you paid for it or very close.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Steve56

http://www.imcclains.com/productinfo...on%20Chart.pdf

Note the micron scale on the right.

Cheers, Steve

I am by no means an expert at all, what with the 3 razor's I've honed in my entire life, and only having ever used a Norton 4/8, but...

Given that:
1. It's generally accepted that 4k is a sharpening grit, 8k is a polishing grit, and +10k is a finishing grit

and

2. We know it's possible to get a descent shave off a Norton 8k, which is considered a polishing grit

Then I would tend to conclude that particle size is not the only thing that matters. The table provided at the reference above shows that the Norton 8k would be equivalent to a Naniwa 4k if such a stone existed. However, I've never heard of anybody saying they regularly shave from a Naniwa 5k stone, in the same way as many do shave from the Norton 8k.

Is it possible that the Norton 8k is classified at that grit rating because, despite a larger particle size in micron, the stone performs similarly to a Naniwa 8k, possibly due to other factors such as particle hardness, bonding material, etc...? Or does the Norton 8k actually perform much closer to the Naniwa 5k??

I apologize for taking this tread further down the bunny-trail and away from the OP topic, but I think this is fascinating and worth pursuing!

Thanks

ps: The table also lists a Norton 15k. Does this stone exist?

I was into the 30k for a while when I started honing. Now I use Shaptons to remove steel and JNats to finish.

I think JNats give the best combination of ease of use, consistency, sharpness, smoothness and edge durability. I have the SG 20k too and while it's a fine hone, it's not as good as my worst JNat. But opinions are like assholes - everybody has one...

-john

Originally Posted by shallard

I am by no means an expert at all, what with the 3 razor's I've honed in my entire life, and only having ever used a Norton 4/8, but...

Given that:
1. It's generally accepted that 4k is a sharpening grit, 8k is a polishing grit, and +10k is a finishing grit

and

2. We know it's possible to get a descent shave off a Norton 8k, which is considered a polishing grit

Then I would tend to conclude that particle size is not the only thing that matters. The table provided at the reference above shows that the Norton 8k would be equivalent to a Naniwa 4k if such a stone existed. However, I've never heard of anybody saying they regularly shave from a Naniwa 5k stone, in the same way as many do shave from the Norton 8k.

Is it possible that the Norton 8k is classified at that grit rating because, despite a larger particle size in micron, the stone performs similarly to a Naniwa 8k, possibly due to other factors such as particle hardness, bonding material, etc...? Or does the Norton 8k actually perform much closer to the Naniwa 5k??

I apologize for taking this tread further down the bunny-trail and away from the OP topic, but I think this is fascinating and worth pursuing!

Thanks

ps: The table also lists a Norton 15k. Does this stone exist?

The following is opinion ...

No I don't think there's anything special about the Norton matrix but could be wrong of course. What I think is folks don't understand that it is entirely possible to shave off a 5k Naniwa or 8k Norton with good technique! I have shaved off a Naniwa 5k and it also passes HHT stupid easy, but not my favorite, but I've never consciously tried to max out a 5k Naniwa edge. Maybe a task for Jimmy or Glen who have a lot of experience to comment on.

One thing you should try is to shave off each stone/grit you use in your progression after a good stropping, you might be rather surprised! Coticule users developed the unicot and dilucot methods to produce a finer and shallower scratch pattern from a stone that's marginal in fineness using conventional methods - they seem to be using the very tips and edges of faceted round garnet crystals rather than a significant depth of the crystal. I've adapted parts of these techniques to JNat honing and they improve the result. So if you are very careful about pressure in your final finishing routine, I see no reason why you can't get a perfectly serviceable shave off a 5k JIS stone/Norton 8k - in fact it's done all the time as you note. That's why getting a good edge off the Norton 8k is recommended as a learning tool.

But your point about the matrix making a difference is a good one, and I'm not sure anyone outside abrasive company engineers understand, and I'd bet they don't know with respect to razors, except possibly Suehiro.

I've never seen a Norton 15k but they're an old company and made a lot of things over the years.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Steve56

The following is opinion ...

No I don't think there's anything special about the Norton matrix but could be wrong of course. What I think is folks don't understand that it is entirely possible to shave off a 5k Naniwa or 8k Norton with good technique! I have shaved off a Naniwa 5k and it also passes HHT stupid easy, but not my favorite, but I've never consciously tried to max out a 5k Naniwa edge. Maybe a task for Jimmy or Glen who have a lot of experience to comment on.

One thing you should try is to shave off each stone/grit you use in your progression after a good stropping, you might be rather surprised! Coticule users developed the unicot and dilucot methods to produce a finer and shallower scratch pattern from a stone that's marginal in fineness using conventional methods - they seem to be using the very tips and edges of faceted round garnet crystals rather than a significant depth of the crystal. I've adapted parts of these techniques to JNat honing and they improve the result. So if you are very careful about pressure in your final finishing routine, I see no reason why you can't get a perfectly serviceable shave off a 5k JIS stone/Norton 8k - in fact it's done all the time as you note. That's why getting a good edge off the Norton 8k is recommended as a learning tool.

But your point about the matrix making a difference is a good one, and I'm not sure anyone outside abrasive company engineers understand, and I'd bet they don't know with respect to razors, except possibly Suehiro.

I've never seen a Norton 15k but they're an old company and made a lot of things over the years.

Cheers, Steve

+1 ... I think the 5K Superstone edge is a shave ready edge as well, although I've never actually shaved off the edge, and a proper bevel will easily 'tree-top' hair off the 5K. My progression (with synthetics) is usually the 1K, 3K, and 5K Naniwa Superstone. I follow with the 8K and the 12k used strictly as polishers/scratch eliminators with a very light touch. Always delivers a very, very nice edge.

With Sheffields I'll very often go right from the 5k to a very fine Coticule with water only and then my Barber's Gem' Escher (water only) and end up with what I personally describe as simply 'delicious edges'...

* IMO*

I have shapton gs 4,8,16,30k
For Swedish steel I go the whole range and a very few light strokes on the 30k the results are as I like them.
For old Sheffields and other worse steel I end after 8k and a natural finisher