Other than it being very pricey, what do you think of the Shapton 30K stone?
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Other than it being very pricey, what do you think of the Shapton 30K stone?
Moved to "Hones"
I think it is most often misused, and misunderstood BTW :p
I've owned my 30K Shapton glass stone for a couple of weeks. I also add two extra layers of tape for a total of three when I hone on this stone. I copied the 3 pieces of tape philosophy from custom razor artisan Tim Zowada. Coming off my 16K Shapton the 30K makes an already sharp edge extremely sharp.
I always complete a three pass shave, one pass ATG with my razors. It takes a very sharp edge to shave ATG an experience little or no blade irritation. The Shapton 30K glass stone delivers the performance I desire for my BBS shaving experience.
Is the stone necessary to achieve a fantastic shave with a S.R.? NO; but after seeing Japanese Natural stones on ebay selling for thousands of dollars. I don't feel buyers remorse when I hone on this stone.
http://rgray.zenfolio.com/img/s6/v144/p762219246-5.jpg
Isn't that one of Butch's razors? Niiice. BTW you don't have to spend thousands of dollars to get a very nice JNat. I've gotten JNats for less than $100 that give great shaving edges. Can't comment on the 30k, I only have the Pro 12k/16k, whichever it actually is.
Thanks eKretz: It's a custom B52 for L Harner. It's an awesome tool for S.R. shaving.
I have the Shapton 30K and I guess I'm one of the ones who don't cotton to it. No matter how few passes I try I wind up with a harsh edge. I get much better results with the Suehiro 20K to tell you the truth.
I debated on purchasing the Shapton 30K or the Suehiro 20K. I read nothing but great reviews about the Suehiro 20K. Since all my other stones were Shaptons, I decided to keep the clan (ceramic micron content together). I'm a sucker for trying new things in order to achieve the ultimate shave. At some point I may purchase the 20K Suehiro.
Is interesting to me that people equate Higher grit stones to a better shaving edge,is just not so.
Years ago I had a set of Shapton professional stones from 1 through 30k. This was when I was starting out and I got too many hones too quickly. Anyway, using the shapton pros in a 5k/8k pyramid following the 1k bevel set, I'd go on to the 15k. I rarely felt the desire to go to the 30k.
At the 15k level the razor was already 'there' as far as I was concerned, and putting another step on the ladder didn't seem to me to be worth the reward. I got on a natural stone kick and I ended up keeping my Nortons, and selling my Shaptons, and my Naniwa superstones. They were both great sets but if it ain't one thing it is another, and I had to sell 'em.
I still have the Nortons, and a few naturals, but mostly hone with Choseras nowadays, and now my top of the heap is the Suehiro 20k. I'm real happy with that. I could do fine with the Shaptons or the superstones but I probably would still go for the 20k over the 30 knowing what I know now.
Well, for those who own a 30K, I think one can overdo it. It might take just a few very light strokes on a 30K as opposed to many strokes which could make it too sharp. Just a few very light strokes on it to put a slight polish on it would probably be all it needs if that. Any more than that might make it too sharp & could be irritable & make the edge more prone to chip more easily also. I'm not saying not to own one because several people do but if so to use it efficiently & very little. That's just my opinion & I hope it makes sense.
Didn't say earlier that I do have an SG20k also, it gives a great edge. Didn't think it was on topic then, but since the conversation has shifted...
I'm going to wade in with an odd, ill-informed reply...
Having only ever used and had a Norton 4/8 and a Shapton 16k I find it hard to understand why one would want more than a 16k. As someone said, I don't know what I don't know, but with ten strokes (remedial fashion) on the 16k delivering what seems, to me, to be a pretty good shave ready edge, I'm not sure it's warranted...
I'm going to take it a step further :) When Randy told me to make sure I could get a good shave off the Norton 8k before moving up to the Shapton Pro 15k that I had at that time, I discovered I could get along just fine shaving off an 8k and actually liked it. Going up in grit to the 12k, 15k, 16k was more like Mount Everest, 'because it was there.'
The 30k was the pinnacle. Having reached it a few times I didn't always feel the need to climb it again, but it is like the ocean. I almost never go there, but it is nice knowing it is only 20 minutes away if I ever want to.
It looks like frosted glass . I dont know , if this is realy nessesary and if it is realy working . Are you sure that this is 30 k and what ths stone do to the blsdec. I am very sceptic about it . Hard hones could be very tricky - 1 wrong move and you began again the process .
Just a comment on grit scales - again - the Suehiro G20k is 0.5 microns, the Shapton 30k is 0.49 microns ... I'd go for the Suehiro. The Norton 8k is about 4.5k on the JIS scale Naniwa uses.
But Jimmy and others bring up a point I've discussed with Alex Gilmore before, the smoothest edges seem to come from stones that are not the ultimate in fineness, ie the Thuringian and coticule come to mind, in the JNat lineup, many people prefer the edge off a kiita versus a finer, harder asagi, me included. It's an interesting topic.
Cheers, Steve
Definitely a complex issue that nobody has ever seriously investigated in a scientific manner publicly. I'm certain that engineers from somewhere like Schick or Gillette could probably answer many of our questions, but probably never would due to the info most likely bring considered proprietary trade secrets.
My theory is that the edges feel different based on the depth and shape of the scratches where they intersect with the apex, and that's probably about all there is to it. Whether this is entirely or even partially correct... Who knows?
Truley is an interesting topic,If Shapton came out with, 40/60/80 grit stones, they would sell like hotcakes (to those that have no clue)
360.00? I often wonder what a 30k Shapton is actually designed for. For knives, it would produce an edge which would degrade quickly.
Seems same would be so for razors. Just like many high grit hones, the reasoning of some (with the money to spend) is that those few strokes it affords will get a razor to the pinnacle. Some razors will not tolerate it, such as old Sheffields.
Purchasing higher and higher grit hones to get a better shave has to stop somewhere. They will not compensate for inadequate edges from 12k and below IMO. Sort of like going out and buying a 700 HP automobile to drive to work and back. How are you going to use it to an advantage over one with 350 HP? Just to know you have it? Perhaps the badge on the fender for all to see? The possibility for overuse easily is great! JMHO
Or the engineers at Suehiro. They seem to have modeled the Gokumyo stone(s) to mimic the desirable qualities of a natural stone, undoubtedly a JNat. That means they had to know what physical attributes equated to a desirable feeling edge!
Maybe things like not just the grit size but shape? Certainly the matrix of the G20k is harder than any JNat I've ever had or heard about so they didn't mimic that. And so on.
Cheers, Steve
If I'm not badly mistaken it was designed for plane blades and chisels, the Japanese variety primarily IMHO. Go to JapanTool dot com and check out some of their chisels and plane blades. The people who are into that are as serious about their tools as we are about our razors. I am under the impression the 30k is to put the icing on the cake, giving a bevel that is like a mirror polish. We just adapted their hones to our use, same with all of the factory synthetics, norton, naniwa, chosera and shaptons. IMHO.
Here's a video which demonstrates how it's used. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-rDvSEnTHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zng0L10a-gU
I'm definitely in the Tom and Steve ( and Jimmy) camp of thinking when it comes to edges. Particularly older Sheffield's which I believe perform best (at least to my liking anyway) off a finer Coticule and Escher....12-15K. Whenever I take a blade to a sharper edge off a 'higher grit' stone I always seem to want to cool the edge a bit using my leaded strop anyway for a smoother shave. As far as that goes, I've had simply 'unbeatable shaves' off of some of the better vintage Barber Hones in the 12-15k range... :shrug:
Yes, they don't use the same grit scales but microns are microns no matter what brand. AFAIK, Shapton uses a proprietary scale that's a little different from Naniwa (JIS) and both are a lot different than Norton.
Here's a useful table:
http://www.imcclains.com/productinfo...on%20Chart.pdf
Note the micron scale on the right.
Cheers, Steve
You're welcome. If you mix brands it's a good reference. I think there's a similar table in the SRP Library.
I don't know what Suehiro uses in this line. I'd be interested to know too. But now this darned thread has me wanting to get a G15k to see how it compares to the G20k, which I don't use much! Talk about HAD.
Cheers, Steve
I know the feeling; This thread has me wanting to purchase a 20K Suehiro for comparison purposes. Does the S.R. cutlery addiction every stop ?
No I don't believe it does lol.
If youre comparing the G20k to other synths, just get it (disclaimer, my synth experience is not great). If you're comparing it to JNat finishers, it does as we'll as some, not as well as others as far as smoothness goes. There's no shortage of sharp with either.
Try it and if you don't like it, it will sell quickly at what you paid for it or very close.
Cheers, Steve
I am by no means an expert at all, what with the 3 razor's I've honed in my entire life, and only having ever used a Norton 4/8, but...
Given that:
1. It's generally accepted that 4k is a sharpening grit, 8k is a polishing grit, and +10k is a finishing grit
and
2. We know it's possible to get a descent shave off a Norton 8k, which is considered a polishing grit
Then I would tend to conclude that particle size is not the only thing that matters. The table provided at the reference above shows that the Norton 8k would be equivalent to a Naniwa 4k if such a stone existed. However, I've never heard of anybody saying they regularly shave from a Naniwa 5k stone, in the same way as many do shave from the Norton 8k.
Is it possible that the Norton 8k is classified at that grit rating because, despite a larger particle size in micron, the stone performs similarly to a Naniwa 8k, possibly due to other factors such as particle hardness, bonding material, etc...? Or does the Norton 8k actually perform much closer to the Naniwa 5k??
I apologize for taking this tread further down the bunny-trail and away from the OP topic, but I think this is fascinating and worth pursuing!
Thanks
ps: The table also lists a Norton 15k. Does this stone exist?
I was into the 30k for a while when I started honing. Now I use Shaptons to remove steel and JNats to finish.
I think JNats give the best combination of ease of use, consistency, sharpness, smoothness and edge durability. I have the SG 20k too and while it's a fine hone, it's not as good as my worst JNat. But opinions are like assholes - everybody has one...
-john
The following is opinion ...
No I don't think there's anything special about the Norton matrix but could be wrong of course. What I think is folks don't understand that it is entirely possible to shave off a 5k Naniwa or 8k Norton with good technique! I have shaved off a Naniwa 5k and it also passes HHT stupid easy, but not my favorite, but I've never consciously tried to max out a 5k Naniwa edge. Maybe a task for Jimmy or Glen who have a lot of experience to comment on.
One thing you should try is to shave off each stone/grit you use in your progression after a good stropping, you might be rather surprised! Coticule users developed the unicot and dilucot methods to produce a finer and shallower scratch pattern from a stone that's marginal in fineness using conventional methods - they seem to be using the very tips and edges of faceted round garnet crystals rather than a significant depth of the crystal. I've adapted parts of these techniques to JNat honing and they improve the result. So if you are very careful about pressure in your final finishing routine, I see no reason why you can't get a perfectly serviceable shave off a 5k JIS stone/Norton 8k - in fact it's done all the time as you note. That's why getting a good edge off the Norton 8k is recommended as a learning tool.
But your point about the matrix making a difference is a good one, and I'm not sure anyone outside abrasive company engineers understand, and I'd bet they don't know with respect to razors, except possibly Suehiro.
I've never seen a Norton 15k but they're an old company and made a lot of things over the years.
Cheers, Steve
+1 ... I think the 5K Superstone edge is a shave ready edge as well, although I've never actually shaved off the edge, and a proper bevel will easily 'tree-top' hair off the 5K. My progression (with synthetics) is usually the 1K, 3K, and 5K Naniwa Superstone. I follow with the 8K and the 12k used strictly as polishers/scratch eliminators with a very light touch. Always delivers a very, very nice edge.
With Sheffields I'll very often go right from the 5k to a very fine Coticule with water only and then my Barber's Gem' Escher (water only) and end up with what I personally describe as simply 'delicious edges'...:)
* IMO*
I have shapton gs 4,8,16,30k
For Swedish steel I go the whole range and a very few light strokes on the 30k the results are as I like them.
For old Sheffields and other worse steel I end after 8k and a natural finisher
https://imageshack.us/a/img838/9603/...3012546915.jpg
Here is a thread from 2009 with what at first glance appears to be the same chart. The most up to date being in post #33 with some interesting banter in that thread.
Back then, going by the info in the chart, I began using naniwa superstones in a 3/5 pyramid, which, if I understood the chart correctly is the equivalent of a Norton 4/8. So when I shaved off the naniwa 5k, it was as if I was shaving off the USA equivalent norton 8k. If I wanted to go further I'd hit the naniwa 8k, which was that much higher, according to the Japanese grit chart.
I have never heard of a Norton 15k waterstone, and I wonder if it isn't a typo ?
I cannot remember who, maybe bill3152, but someone did get the 15k Suehiro along with the 20k. I'm interested in that too, but ........ can't have 'em all ...... :shrug:
From the videos I have seen and discussion here, it seems to me that using .50 micron spray on a felt strop is the equivalent of using a 30K Shapton stone. And a whole lot less expensive.
I have 500, 1k, 4k, 8k, 16k Shaptons and finish up with the sprayed strop.
Because I have already gone down this rabbit hole over and over and over you have fun searching all this out,,, Hint : all the info is here on SRP
You need to realize those Charts are NOT accurate, haven't found one, not one that doesn't have errors
The Norton 8k is rated on the Japanese scale
Natural stones and Barber's hones don't have grit ratings, and then ones that have been attributed to them have steadily gone higher over the last 7+ years I have been reading about them
Differences in Binders and Grit are more important then many think
Grit Numbers are useless except within the same series of hones, you can't even compare the Naniwa Super Stone 1k to the Naniwa Chosera 1k :hmmm:
You might want to listen to what the guy in the Shapton vids says, "Used in sequence, on the right steel"
Using Lynn's famous sig
Now "Have Fun" searching out all that, it really is all quite obvious and is all found right here on SRP
Thanks Glen, interesting!
Nothing like going to the source for the numbers. Here's a link to the draft 2015 Norton catalog, see page 52:
http://www.nortonindustrial.com/uplo...Bookmarked.pdf
This Norton page lists the 4k as 6 micron and the 8k at 3 micron, so that agrees with the table. They are listed as JIS ratings, but they don't seem to align with those attributed to Naniwa's based on the micron scale. But I think we can safely say Norton thinks they're 6 and 3 micron respectively. Now to try and understand the discrepancy...
I'm not sure if they're listing products or grits in the 4th "waterstones" column, and they do list 15K!
Naniwa's official material has been more ... sparse or at least more difficult to ferret out in a manner that can be relied upon. lots of info on Naniwa out there, but not from a source that's reliable IMO. Anyone got Naniwa micron info that isn't forum-based or an obvious rehash of the common tables?
I've been looking for JIS documents but I imagine they're like ANSI, you have to pay (a lot) for them.
Cheers, Steve