Thread: 8K Norton is not enough.

I thought I commented on #2

Originally Posted by ecormier

When you learn how to hone properly, 8k does give a DFS, there is no YMMV to it

Ok maybe I'll go learn how... I think people have debated what gives a nice shave for them for a long time so it is YMMV, just like DE vs Straight. We can be gentleman and agree to disagree though. For $100 you can buy a jnat, or coticule or lapping film and all of them would do more than the norton 8k can do.

Originally Posted by dickerydee

For $100 you can buy a jnat, or coticule or lapping film and all of them would do more than the norton 8k can do.

Agreed, a finisher DOES improve the shave, but I disagree with saying that you can't get a good, smooth shave off an 8k.... like I said earlier in this exact post, I've done so for the past year. Don't get me wrong, I've had a 12K for a month and I love it, but if I didn't have the funds and the stone broke, I wouldn't cry... I got amazing shaves right off the 8k (I was given advice to figure out my 8k for a year BEFORE buying a finisher, and boy and I ever glad I listened)

Originally Posted by ecormier

Agreed, a finisher DOES improve the shave, but I disagree with saying that you can't get a good, smooth shave off an 8k.... like I said earlier in this exact post, I've done so for the past year. Don't get me wrong, I've had a 12K for a month and I love it, but if I didn't have the funds and the stone broke, I wouldn't cry... I got amazing shaves right off the 8k (I was given advice to figure out my 8k for a year BEFORE buying a finisher, and boy and I ever glad I listened)

I guess everyone's face and skin must be the exact same then. Maybe a Poll to see would make it clear.

Originally Posted by dickerydee

I guess everyone's face and skin must be the exact same then. Maybe a Poll to see would make it clear.

What exactly are you missing here?

If you like to shave off an 8k fine, if you don't, then move up to the finishing stones, yes, YMMV at this point, some go to 12k others to 30k all sorts of different ways to put a finished edge on a blade.

The other point is, that in honing, if you can't get the edge to shave properly from an 8k, you will be wasting your time going to a finishing stone, because the work necessary to get a blade shave ready culminates in a shave ready 8k edge.

So without the fundamental 8k edge, the rest is simply a waste of stone, steel and time...that's the theory anyway.

Originally Posted by dickerydee

I guess everyone's face and skin must be the exact same then. Maybe a Poll to see would make it clear.

If the wisest guys on this site amount to 10% of our total population, then a poll shows nothing except popular opinion. I can settle this right now: If you like finishers, use them, I sure will. But if someone on the site says they 'like' the shave they're getting from an 8k, don't tell them they're wrong, that's just rude.

Dick, have you ever used a Norton 8k?

You seem to be missing the point here. A shave off of a Norton 8k is not the best possible shave, which is what many here are seeking. However, if you do not set the bevel right, using something around 1k, then higher grit implements are not going to produce the best possible shave. The same stands at the 8k level. Mistakes at lower grits cannot be fully corrected with higher grits. Getting the most from the 8k sets the stage for the most potential from the higher grits, and the best way to assess the edge is to shave off of it.

so dickerydee, let me see if I have this straight.... you are making this big discussion about 8ks and finishers, and you are shaving with a Gold Dollar?!?

hmmmm....

Originally Posted by ecormier

so dickerydee, let me see if I have this straight.... you are making this big discussion about 8ks and finishers, and you are shaving with a Gold Dollar?!?

hmmmm....

Ohhh lordy, lordy...here comes the Gold Dollar lecture....

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that a progression of grit or how you achieve it isn't required. I never said "1k to finisher". Someone's opinion of 'shave ready' and setting that in stone at the norton 8k is simply silly. Since when did this become scribed in sand? I could shave off a 1k stone, doesn't mean shave ready to me. nope. sorry. never. same goes for 2k, 3k, 4k, up to 8k. nope, not for me. sorry.

This attitude of '8k is shave ready' or as it's being put here 'shave properly' is very strange to me. What imperical data shows this? None. It's just something that someone said that people bought into. In fact, if you look at some real data, the bevel is apparently set at the 4k mark, not 1k, not 8k. So to say shave properly, i think you really need to focus ok 4k and prior.

I quote "No significant change in the bevel angle or width at 3 microns occurs after the 4k level. No measurable difference is observed between the 4k and 16k level, other than a reduction in the apex width, observed in the edge-on views (above).

I also quote : "The convexity near the apex is removed by the 4k level, and the measured geometry is unchanged with higher grits beyond the 4k. This result indicates that the bevel set is completed at the 4k level, not the 1k level as commonly believed. Beyond the 4k level, the bevel polish is refined and the edge width is reduced from about 0.3 microns to about 0.1 microns.

Sharpness is achieved during the bevel setting stage up to 4k grit. Beyond the 4k grit, Keenness improves, but Sharpness is not improved further."

Not sure where this magic 8k number keeps coming from.

Originally Posted by ecormier

so dickerydee, let me see if I have this straight.... you are making this big discussion about 8ks and finishers, and you are shaving with a Gold Dollar?!?

hmmmm....

I have in the past and I have a few in my collection and have honed them for other people. THey are not my primary razor and you coming to this conclusion all by yourself is rather interesting. I'd love to hear your point of view on gold dollars and other chinese razors but this thread is not about that.