Thread: Pressure!

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Sorry I understood the below quote meant you used pressure when finishing"
"I much prefer using a small amount of pressure when finishing with certain stones so as to get the same sort of effect that taping the spine gives - the work is concentrated at the apex this way and the job is done faster and it gives really great edges. "

The wide stone used as a narrow hone works fine. It just takes some gymnastics to work. You just have to lift the toe slightly to avoid contact.

Yes it did mean I used pressure when finishing - before backing off at the very end. Considering that I wrote "IMO some pressure is okay under certain conditions on higher grit stones but no more than the oft-mentioned "eraser" level pressure, and it needs to be reduced to "weight of the razor" pressure before moving on in a progression or calling the edge finished." immediately prior to your quoted text I figured this would be easy to understand. That's the only way the work would be concentrated at the apex. My bad for not being more clear. My thoughts didn't translate well to my typing I guess. I will edit my earlier post.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

When dealing with a warped blade, many times I will simply hone along the edge of a stone, watch the pressure!

Yes this is what I do as well. There's no need to buy any extra stones - just use the narrow sides! Not for beginners probably though. I hone problem razors on the sides of my Shapton Pros all the time.

Whether the razor has a symmetrical frown or a concave warp makes no difference, a narrow stone (or the narrow sides of stones) will make better contact for a higher percentage of it's width than a wide one. I will edit my earlier post to fix that also. Lifting the toe means you will only be making point contact at the edge of the wide stone - not a good thing IMO.

Regardless, I don't care to argue about it. You can go on doing it however you like, as obviously it works for you - and I'll continue to do as I prefer, because it definitely works for me.

Originally Posted by eKretz

Yes this is what I do as well. There's no need to buy any extra stones - just use the narrow sides! Not for beginners probably though. I hone problem razors on the sides of my Shapton Pros all the time.

Whether the razor has a symmetrical frown or a concave warp makes no difference, a narrow stone (or the narrow sides of stones) will make better contact for a higher percentage of it's width than a wide one. I will edit my earlier post to fix that also. Lifting the toe means you will only be making point contact at the edge of the wide stone - not a good thing IMO.
Regardless, I don't care to argue about it. You can go on doing it however you like, as obviously it works for you - and I'll continue to do as I prefer, because it definitely works for me.

Lifting the toe means you will only be making point contact at the edge of the wide stone - not a good thing IMO.
You're making sweeping statements again.
Unless the razor is shaped like a banana or you lift the toe a lot, this is simply not the case.

A lot of guys have been doing this successfully a long time without needing narrow hones.

You only got an argument because you said using a wide stone doesn't work when what you meant was it doesn't work for you. It works perfectly for a lot of us because we've bothered to learn how.

I'm not making sweeping statements at all, merely stating fact. If the razor is warped (on the concave side) or has a frown, and the stone is flat, my point stands. This was the whole premise of any of my posts about using the narrow stone (or side of the stone). I did not say that the wide stone won't work, only that it won't work as well or make as good of contact as a narrower one, (or the narrow side of one) will. Again, if you guys wish to disagree that is fine. I am getting weary of this.

Once more into the breach -if only for those who don't know better. It is a simple matter of geometry. A concave surface (razor with concave warp or frown) will only hit on the ends when placed against a flat surface (hone), with a gap in the middle. The wider the flat surface, the bigger the gap (until the width equals the full width of the razor). If you lift the toe under these circumstances, you will make point contact on the edge of the stone. The concavity does not need to be anything like a banana. Any concavity at all will give this result. A narrower flat surface (hone or side of hone) will remove less material before making full contact. This is a good thing or we would all be honing on the corners of our stones, wouldn't we?

Any faults a razor has, unless it's condition is irreversible, it's better to use your bevel setter to take care of it, instead of trying to find ways to save time. Anyone can do as he pleases of course, but I wouldn't use it as an advice, especially to someone with less experience.
And as far as the pressure goes, it's very important to have in mind that the razor is not stiff enough, not to warp even a micrometer from tip to toe. Unless you are using some custom device for each of your razors that can apply uniform pressure on every millimeter of the blade, it's certain that some parts of it will touch the stone more than others, resulting in uneven wear. You can see it on the spine or the edge.
The easiest way to find that out is with narrow razors like 2-3/8" ones. The uneven hone wear will appear very soon, but the more important thing for experience is, you will also feel it on your hand.
Yes, I know that pressure can be used, and there are a few cases that I also use it and then make sure there are no consequences on the razor because of it, but for a gentleman who just started to hone and has a question, it's better to start with the basics.

Sorry Vasilis my friend, again we disagree. Any beginner must eventually advance, lest he remain a beginner forever. If he is asking for the information, why should he not get it. Of course you are correct regarding correcting geometry issues on the coarser stone... If you look back on page 1 in my first reply you will see this is exactly what I said in my very first post.

Originally Posted by trenchy

Haha i had that song in min when i wrote this.

for now, it works. Therefore i will leave it like that.

However, on its next visit to the hones, i will see if i can get it nice and flat on the coarse hones then go from there nice and light, as usual.

Thanks to you all.

Sounds like some good self help advice and don't get caught up in the discussion. It has gone somewhat off road :<0)

Originally Posted by trenchy

Hi all.

So I have this old sheffield I am trying to save.

It has had some funky honing (uneven bevel and hone wear on the spine) done to it (the poor bugger!) and I'm getting close to sorting it but I need a final bit of a push/advice from you guys.

So - first of all it had a slight frown. I breadknifed it on my Shapton glass 500 which took it down in no time. I did some circles with the spine raised until I got an edge that looked ok (I never seem to be able to set a bevel that cuts arm hair etc, even though once fully honed with the same hones, my other razors all come out sweet). So I markered the bevel, and went to my standard rolling x strokes. I kept going until all the marker on the edge of the bevel was gone.

By doing all this, I found a sharp edge (although at a steeper angle), then flattened out that angle to a normal honing angle. The only thing is, I needed a lot of pressure in certain spots.

All my other razors have never needed any pressure, and so what i'm asking is:

When do you stop using pressure? Everyone says that by the time you get to a 8k or whatever hone, you should be using light strokes, yet if I do that certain parts of the blade don't get honed by the stone (I know because it got to the point where I'm marking the bevel between every hone). Just let me say at this point that my usual strokes with light pressure have done the job wonderfully on all my other razors.

I could use lots of pressure to hit those parts throughout honing, but id rather ask advice before I do anything stupid or make the matter worse.

Any advice please? What do you guys do in this situation?

Thanks

Trenchy

Set the bevel, once that is done you have contact between bevel and stone on the whole length of the bevel as you draw your strokes. Once the bevel is set you start going lighter on the hones. You can still use some pressure on the 3k, but as long as you have bevel set it is just a matter of time to remove the scratches from the previous grit level. Synthetics are pretty quick so it does not take long to get to 8-12k after the bevel is set.

Once again the "Thin hone" myth raises it's head

There is no difference between the two surfaces, the idea that a thinner hone makes honing a smiling or geometrically challenged razor easier or more effective is a myth..
It is hard to convince people of this until you understand that it is the actual gymnastics of the stroke that makes one think it is easier..

Simply take a 3 inch hone draw a line down the side at 1 or 1.5 inches from the edge and keep the razor inside that constraint while honing, that will let you understand that it is the movement (gymnastics) of the stroke that creates the effectiveness..

You are still honing on a flat surface and the contact is still the same .. Honest it really is, try it and see, it will help to dispel the myth... There is no advantage to a thinner hone... (that isn't saying it is a disadvantage either)

Pressure: Watch the water ahead of the edge, you have to apply enough pressure and/or "Torque" to keep the water ripple moving ahead of or over the top of the edge, if you lose the ripple you are no longer honing the edge.. You will learn to adjust the pressure so that you are using the minimal amount needed to ride that wave...

It is only the same if the razor edge is flat or convex. I will draw a picture later to illustrate exactly why this "thin hone myth" is not a myth in any way, fashion or form. A frowning or concave warped razor will take far longer to make full contact with a wider stone - more steel will need to be removed to do so. If you want to use only the corner of the stone to do most of the work, then it's a different story.