les latneuses coticule or Thuringain?

I know I don't need either, but was wondering what others think. First are they a similar feel and keeness?
Second my understanding is that because the edge profiles created by these stones are different and not complementary, I would not want to go from a coticule to an esher or the other way around?
Do people use a Thuringain like a coticule and hone with one stone, or is it ok to go from a coticule to a Thuringain if you use slurry and spend sometime diluting down to water?

I had a razor someone honed on an esher, which I understand is a Thuringain and I hone on coticule. I liked the edge from both of these. So would the edge be different from a Les Latneuses then my other coticules?
Would the Thuringain edge feel different than the Escher?

I have no idea what the science would be with a coti and an escher not being compatible. I do however wonder why you would go from a finisher to a finisher. I am under the impression that you are wanting to use these hones as finishers. You can one stone with a lot of the naturals. Not all Eschers are the same. I have a blue Escher, with label so it is an Escher not a random Thuringian, and it is so slow that it would take a long time to one stone with it. I know a lot of coti guys do one stone, but most others, although you technically can one stone, go up a little way before they use their finisher. There are sort of two things about a hones. Speed and fineness. If you have both one stone is quick and easy. Most stones lack one side or the other. There's my two cents.

P.S.
The hand has a lot to do with the final outcome.

Most of what I do is not bevel setting. I have set a bevel on a coticule and it was a long process, especially on a smiling barber wedge. I don't have other stones. I was not wanting to finish from one stone to another. I was wondering if I got a Thuringain since my razors are all set on coti would it be a problem when it needed touch up to than go to Thuringain? I do realize that not all of one kind of stone are the same. That is why I also tried to narrow it down with a coti type and when I say Thuringain I do not mean Escher. I mean a newer Thuringain from the same quarry that the Escher came from.

Sorry I have been looking at stones and these are the questions that came up. I can get a Thuringain for alot less money and much easier to get than a les latneuses coticule. I do love the way the les latneuses looks and the fact that it has two different sides making it more like two for one even if the price is more like 3. So basically I narrowed my search to these two and wanted others real world experience with these and if anyone had gone back an forth with them with no problems.

Ok. Well that makes way more sense. I was very confused, but that happens easily. I cannot for see a problem. If you are touching up an edge it should make no difference what was previously used on that edge. So many activities here are very subjective and you cannot definitely say. I have not tried it myself but I would do it.

IME a thuringan is a finisher. In fact, I was taught to only use it with a razor that was already shaving well at at least the 8k level. As far as one or the other, I've had good ones in both les lat, and thuri. For a finisher I'd give the edge (no pun) to the thuringan. YMMV.

Used correctly, a Les Latneuses will provide an excellent shaving edge. It *can* be used as an all-in-one hone (the one I have can be pretty fast on slurry). However, using a progression to get to the pre-shave-ready edge is faster and more reproducible.

At that point the Les Lat will produce a lovely shaving edge. It differs somewhat from the edge a good thuringian produces, but that's a 'qualitative' difference in the feel of the shave (IME).

I have both, and I cannot pick one that I prefer - sometimes I like one, sometimes the other.

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Originally Posted by rideon66

I mean a newer Thuringain from the same quarry that the Escher came from.

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Can you elaborate on this? It sounds like a familiar false claim from a certain webshop.

Do, be careful purchasing “New/Old Stock” stones of exaggerated grit ratings.

If this is the path you choose to take, (non-synthetic), do yourself a favor and buy a quality, proven, old stock, real Thuringian, if not an Escher. Nice ones are not that, expensive. The performance will be well worth the cost.

Reviews on New/Old stock Thuringian/unlabeled “Escher’s” are not good. Buy proven performers, or better yet, buy a 12K Super Stone for half the cost and bullet proof, proven performance, ($87 at SRD).

The 12k will do all you need, short of major restore work…

12k Bevel Set

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Originally Posted by Piet

Can you elaborate on this? It sounds like a familiar false claim from a certain webshop.

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Yes this is from a website that sells new coticules, eschers, and thuringains. All I know is the site was a link from probably the most reputable coti site.

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Originally Posted by yohannrjm

Used correctly, a Les Latneuses will provide an excellent shaving edge. It *can* be used as an all-in-one hone (the one I have can be pretty fast on slurry). However, using a progression to get to the pre-shave-ready edge is faster and more reproducible.

At that point the Les Lat will produce a lovely shaving edge. It differs somewhat from the edge a good thuringian produces, but that's a 'qualitative' difference in the feel of the shave (IME).

I have both, and I cannot pick one that I prefer - sometimes I like one, sometimes the other.

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Just for the record (although I think you know, Yohann, but others may not be aware of this), Les Latneuses are actually three coticule layers, hence the plural s. There is the so-called 'hybrid' layer sandwiched between a (generally speaking) fast (on slurry) creamy layer and a (generally speaking) slower (on slurry) creamy layer. I have used all of these, and all of them give a very comparable edge.

And if we're talking about the MST/Müller Thuringians (they are Thüringers, as they are from the Thüringen area), I've not had the pleasure of using one myself, but I've heard both "not much different from vintage Thuringians" and "definitely inferior to vintage Thuringians". Presumably they will put a shaveable edge on a razor, but the nuance may be something to argue over. But again, I have never used one. They're not very expensive, though, so I might consider at some point. Just to try.

I've used an MST thuri, and they are not similar to vintage thuris. I'm not thuri buff, but I've used three. The MST thuri was a prefinisher, I'd not have another one for free.

As for cotis and thuris in general, if I had a coti that made a similar keenness of edge, I'd just use it without the thuri. Many don't, thus I'd follow the coti with the thuri (of escher type or similar vintage) if that provided a better edge.

There aren't too many hard and fast rules other than that in shaving, there's no great reason to use a finer stone before finishing with another one that degrades the edge.

There's no incompatibility between coti and thuri edges. Only when going from a brash cutting artificial to a synthetic do you have to make a lateral move (i.e., skip from an artificial middle stone to a natural middle stone before going to a finisher because the artificial abrasive leaves much deeper rows/stria).

Ok. It sounds like I probably want to stick with a coti, cause I only thought of a thuri due to the cheaper price. It sounds like the cheaper ones may be inferio.
I am not sure what a MTS thuri is. The ones I am talking about come from a timbertool site linked to the coticule.be site.

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Originally Posted by rideon66

Ok. It sounds like I probably want to stick with a coti, cause I only thought of a thuri due to the cheaper price. It sounds like the cheaper ones may be inferio.
I am not sure what a MTS thuri is. The ones I am talking about come from a timbertool site linked to the coticule.be site.

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This is just my opinion, but I wouldn't come close to spending any money on any "thuri" on timbertools' site. If you're going to spend any money on any thuringian, it must be vintage, and you can let the price dictate what size you get (a celebrated 1x5 water hone should be inexpensive, bigger stones like 1 1/2 x 7 or 2x6 or 2 1/2x5, not so much). I have never seen or heard of a "good" thuringian stone that hit the market after the escher group clapped out and the company sold ( inherited?) where someone else tried to bond the cuttings together.

What timbertools sells in the larger stones appears to be the same thing that's available on ebay for 1/3rd the cost - they are referred to as MST, and when you get one in person and see the surface, you will immediately be let down, especially so when you use it and try to polish a razor on it.

If their small stones are made from a piece of true vintage thuringian material that escher passed by, then they still want as much as a labeled escher would cost, and they are using another company's brand to promote something they are selling. Escher is escher. They are selling thuringian stuff at best, they are not selling escher unless the label is from Escher and co. I think they've probably been made aware of that.

What you get with one of their stones is something that costs as much as a vintage labeled escher but what happens if you don't like it? You'll have trouble getting a small fraction of your money back, especially if the stones aren't Y/G color (the picture makes them look gray).

I'll yield to anyone who has actually bought one and used it alongside an escher, but I wouldn't risk it.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

And if we're talking about the MST/Müller Thuringians (they are Thüringers, as they are from the Thüringen area), I've not had the pleasure of using one myself, but I've heard both "not much different from vintage Thuringians" and "definitely inferior to vintage Thuringians". Presumably they will put a shaveable edge on a razor, but the nuance may be something to argue over. But again, I have never used one. They're not very expensive, though, so I might consider at some point. Just to try.

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Years ago Russell Baldridge, a honemiester on SRP from back then, did a review praising a particular Müller Thuringian, and I picked one up from a member for $50.00. A 6"x2 1/2" IIRC. I followed the method Russell had posted, and the stone was pretty good. It was not up to the level of my Escher and I sold it shortly thereafter.

OTOH, Tony Miller, the strop maker, used to stock and sell Müller Thuringians. He told me that he stopped carrying them because too many of them had hard inclusions. So the quality varied. The one I happened on was a good one, inclusion free, but apparently some of them were not as good. I don't know what is going on with the vendor, or his stock, at the present time. I guess you pays your money and takes your chances.

In messing around with coticules and thuringans I've used a coticule to sharpen, followed with a thuri to finish with good results. Used a Norton 4/8 (after setting the bevel on a 1k) and followed with a coticule, and/or a thuringan. Just experimenting with different combinations. In general it was all good.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

Just for the record (although I think you know, Yohann, but others may not be aware of this), Les Latneuses are actually three coticule layers, hence the plural s. There is the so-called 'hybrid' layer sandwiched between a (generally speaking) fast (on slurry) creamy layer and a (generally speaking) slower (on slurry) creamy layer. I have used all of these, and all of them give a very comparable edge.

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Thats one of the nicer examples beeing a "les Latneuses" stone beeing three layered...

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3930/...dd44c1_c_d.jpg

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Originally Posted by DaveW

If you're going to spend any money on any thuringian, it must be vintage, and you can let the price dictate what size you get (a celebrated 1x5 water hone should be inexpensive, bigger stones like 1 1/2 x 7 or 2x6 or 2 1/2x5, not so much). I have never seen or heard of a "good" thuringian stone that hit the market after the escher group clapped out and the company sold ( inherited?) where someone else tried to bond the cuttings together.

What timbertools sells in the larger stones appears to be the same thing that's available on ebay for 1/3rd the cost - they are referred to as MST, and when you get one in person and see the surface, you will immediately be let down, especially so when you use it and try to polish a razor on it.

If their small stones are made from a piece of true vintage thuringian material that escher passed by, then they still want as much as a labeled escher would cost, and they are using another company's brand to promote something they are selling. Escher is escher. They are selling thuringian stuff at best, they are not selling escher unless the label is from Escher and co. I think they've probably been made aware of that.

What you get with one of their stones is something that costs as much as a vintage labeled escher but what happens if you don't like it? You'll have trouble getting a small fraction of your money back, especially if the stones aren't Y/G color (the picture makes them look gray).

I'll yield to anyone who has actually bought one and used it alongside an escher, but I wouldn't risk it.

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Actually there are possibilities around to get some nice "Vintage Stones" for good prices, shurely not cheap but actually in a fair condition....a german site still sells vintage stones but only in the Celebrated Water Hone size (11x2,5x2), shure you have to come around with the narrow stone.

Then you can get some nice Bout stones from Hatzicho where i never heard that anybody wasnt comfortable to use them or either unsatisfied with the results. Keith did some nice reviews of them here:

http://www.tomonagura.com/Escher-Raz...huringian.html

http://www.tomonagura.com/Escher-Raz...ck-escher.html

I know that some (ive seen 2 or 3) beeing sold over ebay, but nobody wrote anything negative on the boards.

I would prefer a Thuringian stone because for me its the easiest to use stone which gives me some smooth edges...

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Years ago Russell Baldridge, a honemiester on SRP from back then, did a review praising a particular Müller Thuringian, and I picked one up from a member for $50.00. A 6"x2 1/2" IIRC. I followed the method Russell had posted, and the stone was pretty good. It was not up to the level of my Escher and I sold it shortly thereafter.

OTOH, Tony Miller, the strop maker, used to stock and sell Müller Thuringians. He told me that he stopped carrying them because too many of them had hard inclusions. So the quality varied. The one I happened on was a good one, inclusion free, but apparently some of them were not as good. I don't know what is going on with the vendor, or his stock, at the present time. I guess you pays your money and takes your chances.

In messing around with coticules and thuringans I've used a coticule to sharpen, followed with a thuri to finish with good results. Used a Norton 4/8 (after setting the bevel on a 1k) and followed with a coticule, and/or a thuringan. Just experimenting with different combinations. In general it was all good.

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Just wearing a tin foil hat, one would wonder why a large chunk of rock wasn't sold by a company that literally made their business selling the stuff, and then ran out of it and closed their doors.

The large MST I had was really not any better than an american flea market slate, and it left a very cloudy finish, coarse, and a dull edge. I'm sure there's some variability.

BUT, I'd like to make the point that there's nothing that special about eschers and vintage y/g thuris *except* that they are incredibly consistent. You get one, you get a good one. There's no great reason to take chances on new ones at the same price.

Most of the ones that sell for $600 can be outclassed by a $75 piece of jnat koppa, but a sometimes those are not as easy to use and sometimes they just aren't as good as expected. That consistency (along with the vintage label for collectors) is where the money is.

The whole presentation of the stones on the timbertools page rubs me the wrong way. The grit quote for the bigger stones sounds suspect, because a relative ballpark guess at an escher would be somewhere around the number they provide.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

BUT, I'd like to make the point that there's nothing that special about eschers and vintage y/g thuris *except* that they are incredibly consistent. You get one, you get a good one. There's no great reason to take chances on new ones at the same price.

Most of the ones that sell for $600 can be outclassed by a $75 piece of jnat koppa, but a sometimes those are not as easy to use and sometimes they just aren't as good as expected. That consistency (along with the vintage label for collectors) is where the money is.

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I can underline not to invest in a new mined stone...actually if a JNAT Koppa rules out a Thuringian has in my point of view also to do how you prefer your edges to be. Actually i tried several edges of JNATs owning two Ohzukos, having tested a Nakayama and actually having two for testing here at my home...

And i just did not come around with those JNATS...i prefer the results from Thuringian stones...
So i just want to point out that its also an Topic of personal preference...

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Originally Posted by doorsch

I can underline not to invest in a new mined stone...actually if a JNAT Koppa rules out a Thuringian has in my point of view also to do how you prefer your edges to be. Actually i tried several edges of JNATs owning two Ohzukos, having tested a Nakayama and actually having two for testing here at my home...

And i just did not come around with those JNATS...i prefer the results from Thuringian stones...
So i just want to point out that its also an Topic of personal preference...

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Certainly. I think a lot of vintage barber hones that are japanese are more mellow than ozuku koppa. I've had two ozuku stones, a coarse one and a fine one, and the fine ones can refuse to release particles and be very cold feeling. The other one I use in my shop, that hardness isn't bad with tools, especially tools that have jigane (soft backing pulls particles off of a stone a lot better than hardened steel).

At any rate, that just keys back to what makes thuris trusted, they're consistent and plenty fine enough for a comfortable shave. Some jnats seem to exceed them (especially as far as sharpness goes), though, but not all, and like you say, personal opinion about what "exceeding" qualifies as applies to the situation.

Recently, last week or so, a 6 in labeled Escher sold for around $150. It would make a great finisher. For final finisher you do not need a large stone, large stones are nicer, but a 6 in stone, is plenty good.

Buy the largest, best stone you can afford.

What would be a good price range to look for on a Les Lat?