Thread: Dragons tongue(8-10K) and purple llyn melynllyn(12k)

I have those stones and really like them. I will generally use them instead of a Coticule, depending on the metal the blade is made from; some like the Coticule better and some like the Welsh stones better.......

Originally Posted by Bayamontate

Assigning an approximate grit rated to most, if not all natural stones is an exercise in futility and these are no different. I tested several of both and in most cases the results were almost interchangeable, the purple cut less efficiently and the DT. I like and agree the BBW comparison.

Yes, of course it is, I think that most of us know that, and have known it for a very long time. I used to preface all 'grit assignment ratings' with a disclaimer like that (still do in my shop sales) but have found it tiresome to type out for every single post I make here.

Primarily it is a kind of shorthand - we need a way to compare apples with oranges in this case, and this is a loose way of doing that. It gives you a ball-park kind of guess as to how the hone compares with others.

What else are you going to say to someone hoping to add a natural into a honing sequence - 'uh...don't know where it fits' - that is kind of useless isn't it?! Much better to say that it probably will fit in at so-and-so level, but is a bit slow or a bit fast - that makes for a bit of helpful (but still a little vague) advice.

As far as I am concerned, each natural within a class of hones (eg purple slates) is different or has the capability to be different to another example of the same family of hone stones, and only trying one out for yourself will tell you what its performance is like. But if you are looking for a finisher that has an equivalent performance to a hone of known grit, eg high, it is better to start with a natural that folks have used and assigned a high grit equivalence to rather than another hone that is rated to be a near equivalent to a grit rating in the 5k - 6k mark.

Common sense, really.

Regards,
Neil

I have had these hones for a while now - maybe a couple of years. I initially got them. and tried them out and found them to be 'meh!', so they sat in a drawer for a long time.

I recently decided to give them another tryout and took several razors off a DMT 8K and honed them up. The Welsh slates did a great job polishing the edges. The purple one was better, and produced an edge that shaved close and comfortably.

I'm just an amateur honer, but I don't bother about 'grit ratings' for my finishers. If I get an edge that is shave-sharp and provides a close, comfortable shave, that's all I care about.

I can't make any claims about the general usability of the Welsh slates, but the ones I received are certainly good enough to use as finishers on razors.

That is a sound approach, one that fits in with the '...try it yourself...' ethic I mentioned above. Some people are on a very restricted budget though, and cannot afford to buy a number of hones 'on spec' in an attempt to find a finisher, so a little guidance, no matter how vague or ill-defined, from a reliable person often helps.

Regards,
Neil

Also not too experienced. Only have two coticules to compare to. Find the purple one rather good. Sharper and not quite as smooth as the better coticule. Certainly a nice shave from it and leaves almost mirror finish under 60× magnification.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

That is a sound approach, one that fits in with the '...try it yourself...' ethic I mentioned above. Some people are on a very restricted budget though, and cannot afford to buy a number of hones 'on spec' in an attempt to find a finisher, so a little guidance, no matter how vague or ill-defined, from a reliable person often helps.

Regards,
Neil

Yep, that's good advice! Luckily, these hones are available for a reasonable price. As you point out, it's not possible to try everything out, as the costs rise quickly. Some hones are just too 'premium' for me. I always find it nice that you can get a lovely shaving edge without shelling out a huge sum.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Yes, of course it is, I think that most of us know that, and have known it for a very long time. I used to preface all 'grit assignment ratings' with a disclaimer like that (still do in my shop sales) but have found it tiresome to type out for every single post I make here.

Primarily it is a kind of shorthand - we need a way to compare apples with oranges in this case, and this is a loose way of doing that. It gives you a ball-park kind of guess as to how the hone compares with others.

What else are you going to say to someone hoping to add a natural into a honing sequence - 'uh...don't know where it fits' - that is kind of useless isn't it?! Much better to say that it probably will fit in at so-and-so level, but is a bit slow or a bit fast - that makes for a bit of helpful (but still a little vague) advice.

As far as I am concerned, each natural within a class of hones (eg purple slates) is different or has the capability to be different to another example of the same family of hone stones, and only trying one out for yourself will tell you what its performance is like. But if you are looking for a finisher that has an equivalent performance to a hone of known grit, eg high, it is better to start with a natural that folks have used and assigned a high grit equivalence to rather than another hone that is rated to be a near equivalent to a grit rating in the 5k - 6k mark.

Common sense, really.

Regards,
Neil

Thanks Neil for pointing that out that way....would be great if this statement would be a common understanding!!

For natural stones I personally could care less if they are x,000 grit or xx,000 grit. All I need to know is whether it's a bevel setter, a mid level stone (good kitchen knife edges) or a finishing stone (gives a close and comfortable shave).

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I must admit that I tend to agree with Vasilis.

I used to sell these hones - a lot of them, too as I had an agreement with the Inigo Jones company. I tested every one I sold. My estimate of a grit rating on the best ones was around 9k, but a lot of others fell in around the 6k to 8k mark. Whatever, I considered them as not quite a finishing hone, unless you used something like chrome oxide after honing.

The main thing was that the surface on them from the quarry, although flat, was milled a bit coarsely, so this had to be lapped off with a 325 grit diamond hone which improved the stone enormously, and a 600 grit plate made it really quite fine. The ones I used were lapped with different grits on each side. Also, you need to be somewhat adept at honing, or the edge is not what you think it would be.

As for the purple slates, I have tried a lot of old vintage ones in boxes and set in paddles, all the Salmen types (except the dark grey which is a different stone entirely and a finisher for certain) multiple times and a lot of the freshly quarried ones. I can honestly say that not one of them came anywhere near 15k. Maybe 10 0r 11k, but that is pushing it, and some of course come in below this.

In fact the person who sold them on Ebay usd to ask my advice, but then he came up with these nonsensical grit ratings. I know that some people jave used them and think that they are the bees knees, never failing to sing their praises whenever the opportunity arises. Me? - I also take the opportunity whenever I can to try and put the matter in perspective with regards to my own numerous experiences of these hones.

In the end its just a lot of peoples personal experiences combined with how they prepared the various stones, the changeable nature of natural stones, how coarse their beards are and how adept at honing they are. Too many variables to take any ones word, including mine.

Regards,
Neil

Neil I have a question in regard to lapping these hones. After lapping on 325 DMT would it be beneficial for the performance of these hones to lap further on 600 grit and 1000 grit wet /dry paper. I dont have a 600 DMT but do have the wet/dry paper mentioned above

Thanks for your time.

Originally Posted by madpaddy

has anyone ever used DRAGONS TONGUE(8-10K) and PURPLE LLYN MELYNLLYN(12k)
if so are they any use there a welsh slate as far as I know

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I bought a Dragon's Tongue from Neil Miller several years ago. He estimated the grit rating at around 9k and I agree with that estimate. I also bought a PURPLE LLYN MELYNLLYN from him some time later and it finishes quite nicely with a gradually diluted slurry to plain water. A fair estimate on that stone would be 10k to 12k. Both stones yield a smooth shave with minimum fuss.