Thread: Apache Black Gila

A lot of people call it like they see it. I call it like I see it, but I'm just a guy with a lot of experience with different stones in a variety of settings, and by no means an expert and I wouldn't let anyone use my opinion to sell anything (well, I did give alex permission to say that he provided me a good experience buying my stones - but Alex - you put someone else's comment with my name by mistake!!).

Here's why, and we have this problem in woodworking, too. Even if you're not getting paid, you have the urge to say everything is good and not point out anything bad, because if you do that, you start getting fewer things to test, and if you get fewer things to test, it's hard to keep up with the people who only have positive opinions about everything. Of course, nobody has all positive opinions about everything so this bias doesn't keep people from saying anything bad, it just keeps them from doing it as often as they would if they were sending you a PM and were sure you wouldn't tell anyone what you really thought.

It also creates a situation where the person who is the expert is unwilling to admit what they really know about things. I've seen it in woodworking (I don't read razor blogs if there are any), someone who likes things and has questions instantly has no questions for anyone once they have a blog, because people who want to look like they know everything aren't supposed to have questions.

When the guy you're referring to argued about the surgical black labeling of arkansas stones with me, It suggested a little bit of that. That makes me wary. It could've been a one off with the guy.

I could be unnecessarily wary about all of these new stones that for some reason weren't marketed for razors when there was a thriving market for stones.

But I wish there were more people who objectively question things like I do, people with experience who do it and without worry about whether they're seen as an expert or will remain friends with those who supply stuff.

I saw the page you're referring to, there's something that strikes me as odd. It's a great finisher but there's a big danger of beginners ruining a hone and having to go back. And the comments above about a stone being pressure sensitive for results. Have we ever heard that about a vintage japanese hone from a barber shop or about a y/g thuri? I haven't.

I don't know any of the parties involved here, I just have a little bit of reservation and feel it for the beginners who come into this hobby who just want to sharpen a few razors and shave.

Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Dave W!!! where have you been friend?

I'll agree with you on them being over priced and join you in the cynic section. I wouldn't pay ^$300 for any stone especially if it hasn't been thoroughly tested and proved efficient at honing razors by more then a few "non-honemeisters".

In and out reading from time to time, I guess...I can say this much, since I've been posting regulary, I haven't honed a razor but I've been shaving with straights every day. My linens have my razors in such a state that I'd hate to hone them, they'd go down, and I've been shaving with the current one for five months now.

I could give a $10 piece of jasper and a cutoff from a phig to a honemeister, and they could make an edge as good as an escher. I could, too. It would cost $20 and it's a bit harder to decipher than an escher. That's part of the problem - the skill is much more important than the stone.

The answer to all of this could be that my questioning is unfounded in this case, but I know it hasn't been every single time I've questioned something.

Y/G escher and gok 20k are two examples where you pretty much say "put the razor on it and rub it around any way you'd like, as long as you don't lift the spine, and it will be finished". Same is true of most vintage japanese hones that were actually used by barbers. That's sort of what I'd expect for big money, either that or lineage. I've been down this road and bought a lot, and I lost a lot of money when I resold some of the things and it didn't cause me to go hungry or anything, but it was annoying.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Y/G escher and gok 20k are two examples where you pretty much say "put the razor on it and rub it around any way you'd like, as long as you don't lift the spine, and it will be finished". Same is true of most vintage japanese hones that were actually used by barbers. That's sort of what I'd expect for big money, either that or lineage. I've been down this road and bought a lot, and I lost a lot of money when I resold some of the things and it didn't cause me to go hungry or anything, but it was annoying.

I don't like to talk about how someone price their stones neither I like to justify the cost of a stone, however newly mined stones in general are very highly priced, in this example you can pick a very nice JNat from well known vendors who give you all sort of grantees, or at half price you can get a very large unlabelled YG.

I think Dave point is " why to pay big money for unknown finisher that isn't famous for it's nice edge or comfert shave and will not return it value when you resell it "

I'm 100% with Dave on this one.

I actually traded for mine. I've never bought or even spoke to the owner. I will say if someone is not happy with a hone, he seems to go out of his way to make it right so that is a major positive. I don't really think he does the hard sell at all. It really does hang comfortably with some great vintage rocks, but I will add so have no name random cheap stones I have come up with. It's the kind of finisher that appeals to me in that I don't have to play with any slurry and it is not slow to refine. Same reason I love French finishers to be honest, and my Vermont slates but all of those have a different character. If you are trying to save cash I will always say find a unlabeled thuri or buy an ark and condition it. I really enjoy this stone though.

Originally Posted by Dcaddo1

He thoroughly tests lots of different "new" razor stones and as far as I've seen always calls it like he sees it. Some he likes, some he doesn't, and that's just one mans opinion but it's a helpful starting point for people considering buying a specific stone. I know 3 guys that I talk to regularly that have and love the new Apache black and I value and trust their opinions, but I haven't and probably won't buy one simply because I'm happy with where I am and what I have now. I read where the owner explained the pricing of these stones and said they weren't mined, but had to be found laying in a very harsh and dangerous climate and that for any less money it wouldn't be worth his time. Can't blame him for that. I don't like working for free either. Not everybody wants to pay big money for experimental stones, and if you're one of those people, then don't. To me it's as simple as that.

I live in southwestern AZ, and yeah...hiking around the desert here isn't a lot of fun for the majority of the year. It can also be quite dangerous. Add to that that dragging back a stone (or stones) of an appropriate size to make hones out of is pretty labor intensive...and I can see where some of his pricing is for the Gila's. That said, just because something takes 20hrs of labor to manufacture, doesn't mean someone else will appreciate it enough to pay those 20hrs of labor. The same problem goes for guys who make razors. If it takes 20hrs, and I make a great product priced accordingly, some people will love it and pay the rate charged, others won't see the value and won't...regardless of how good it may or may not be. Value is subjective. Hell, some people will pay $300 for a hone (or 3-4x that for a razor) because it's beautiful and not very many people have it, assuming it has even close to a decent reputation (or in lieu of that, an endorsement by a respected 'expert'...self proclaimed or otherwise).

Originally Posted by DaveW

.....I could be unnecessarily wary about all of these new stones that for some reason weren't marketed for razors when there was a thriving market for stones.....

.....I saw the page you're referring to, there's something that strikes me as odd. It's a great finisher but there's a big danger of beginners ruining a hone and having to go back. And the comments above about a stone being pressure sensitive for results. Have we ever heard that about a vintage japanese hone from a barber shop or about a y/g thuri? I haven't.

Whether a stone was marketed historically is irrelevant in many ways these days. Historically (and in modern times as well), unless you have a big enough vein of the rock to support the type of equipment, manpower, and overhead necessary to make it a viable commercial business venture, it wouldn't be marketed at all. For example, there are coticule deposits ALL OVER the United States. Some (well, one lol) have even been mentioned as having similar cutting qualities to Belgians. The main difference is, the sheer quantity of the Belgian coticules over the generations, vs a deposit that might yield 100 or 200 stones. Would a US coticule be worthy of 'marketing' commercially at that point? Probably not, even if it cuts as well or BETTER than its Belgian counterparts. In this day and age, the qualities that make a good hone are very much broadcast across the internet. Anyone with a will and some time can go rock hunting for something appropriate...or even exceptional, and is likely to find it...whether it was previously marketed or not. Nature is infinite in her variables, and often the 'best' natural product for a given purpose doesn't come in anywhere near a high enough quantity to be marketable on a commercial basis.

In regards to 'ruining' the edge...I guess it ties back into something you said below:

Originally Posted by DaveW

...Y/G escher and gok 20k are two examples where you pretty much say "put the razor on it and rub it around any way you'd like, as long as you don't lift the spine, and it will be finished".

I received my stone today, and I think it would be more appropriate to blend your statement and the statement made by Terry on the page into something like ''Put the razor on and rub it around lightly, and as long as you don't lift the spine you won't demolish the edge, and it will be finished". But that could probably be said about your Y/G Escher and gok 20k as well, right? I ran a junk razor over the hone as sent, completely unlapped (with fine cutter marks), and the only thing I see that might cause it to do MORE damage to an edge is the pure flat out hardness. There is no forgiveness, your edge is going to fail before it takes a chunk out of this stone. Again though, that applies to most every hone I've ever used or heard of to one degree or another.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I don't know any of the parties involved here, I just have a little bit of reservation and feel it for the beginners who come into this hobby who just want to sharpen a few razors and shave.

I only know Terry through communicating about his stones. He lives about 90 miles away from me though, and is a super nice guy. I'd like to visit his setup one of these days. One thing I will say, is that a lot of the information on his site is based on things he was told by actual accepted and respected 'honemeisters' who were given his product to evaluate...balanced by things he's learned using the stones himself. This can probably lead to certain things being picked up by certain people that might not be by others. For you it was the stressed possible negatives, for others its the glowing praise. People are weird lol, pleasing all of them is impossible.

Originally Posted by DaveW

...I could give a $10 piece of jasper and a cutoff from a phig to a honemeister, and they could make an edge as good as an escher. I could, too. It would cost $20 and it's a bit harder to decipher than an escher. That's part of the problem - the skill is much more important than the stone...

I recently picked up a piece of red quartzite that I had brought back to Arizona with me from northern Nevada. I've been doing so much reading lately on self made/found hones that I decided to take it to my 2x72 and flatten part of it. 2hrs later I started lapping it with diamond plates. I've got it up to 600 grit diamond now...it's cutting at about an 8k level...and very fast. I'm sure with more polishing it may reach the 20k level as far as scratch refinement. I also have a piece of fortification agate that I had slabbed out, and it's much the same. You're right that there's ZERO feedback, and so deciphering when to stop, when to lighten slurry (if you even use it), or even when your surface preparation has become so polished that it's useless...is very difficult. My Apache Strata is 10x more user friendly, and I think the Gila will be even moreso.

I do like the edges off of my quartz based stuff though (when I get it right!), and it being stunningly beautiful and found/made by me are really nice benefits lol. So much so that I have a piece of green quartzite (with high mica and chromium content!) I'll be doing the same thing to here shortly as well!



I'll keep you guys updated on my efforts and anything I learn on the Gila!

This actually does have feedback, it doesn't feel like the blade is just skating over the thing which is a plus.

Originally Posted by kcb5150

This actually does have feedback, it doesn't feel like the blade is just skating over the thing which is a plus.

Yep! I could feel that even running a razor on it with cutter marks.

Terry confirmed by the way that my stone is bookmatched to yours. They are literally going to behave identically. Cool stuff!

But what little I do know about his operation, I know he has had a lot of different stuff vetted for viability by people who genuinely know what they are doing. He doesn't just cut things that are apparently fine, chuck them out and use his customers as the r&d stage. Every post I ever read about him praised how customer oriented he is and the people who got the odd dud soon had a replacement that performs. I can't really complain about someone who is small and trying to do things the right way. I like having new options, it makes things interesting and fun. The best natural finisher ever is probably in some seam nobody has ever thought of going through so it's good to not be dismissive outright, I think.

How far out of true is your piece? I was lucky I got out of having to do that. Curious how hard it is vs things like arks and the quartz you have been lapping

The fact it does have feel instead of feeling dead is one of the things I find really confusing in figuring out what the material is exactly. Usually, when you get into that hardness zone, everything holds its cards tight and you are left in the dark.

Originally Posted by CrisAnderson27

Yep! I could feel that even running a razor on it with cutter marks.

Terry confirmed by the way that my stone is bookmatched to yours. They are literally going to behave identically. Cool stuff!