Thread: Finish hone after flattening?

Originally Posted by jnats

With a magnesia binder his water would only need be low in pH, as acid eats MgO quite easily.

Ok, I don't want to hijack this thread so if you want to help me that's great. Do we need to start a new thread?

I'm really getting excited now. Here are my water readings. I have a hot tub, so I can test for basic water chemistry.

Yes they get soaked before using them, but I stopped soaking them long term because they acted inconsistently.

Untreated Well Water - Softened Tap Water - Reverse Osmosis
Hardness 250 - 0 - 0
Alkalinity 240 - 120 - 0-40
PH 6.8 - 7.8 - less than 6.2

Interesting. The softened water is alkaline, like MgO. Not acidic. But the RO water is Acidic, no surprise there.
Not surprised the softened water is alkaline either. Good work Bozam!

However, we need a new theory that might explain the binder failure of the norton. As it doesn't approach being caustic enough to cause distress. - This points to the possibility of the norton stone not using the magnesia binder like chosera does- possibly another cement additive like calcium hydroxide?

If this is the case, this would be a very bad combination and would explain the distress, as softeners convert magnesium sulfate and calcium sulfate into sodium sulfate, sodium sulfate and magnesium sulfate especially are more expansive than calcium hydroxide and will replace and force it apart (it is this mechanism of action by which cement is destroyed by alkaline water (as well as a coupe others- such as)) , also sodium sulfate can itself dissolve MgO and carry it away,, as MgO is soluble in sodium sulfate- so even a magnesia binder would be weakened by sodium sulfate bearing water (water softener water) not by corrosion or decomposition of an acid but by erosion of a solvent. The sodium sulfate can carry it away. Or replace calcium or magnesium hydroxide and swell to exponents of size, which could cause crazing, cracking, spalling or turning to goo- like lettuce that has been frozen.

Just some ideas...

Though turning to goo, or softened, still strongly suggests a magnesia binder like chosera, as the binder being carried away in sodium sulphate is much more likely to lead to this, whereas the others of expansive replacement would more likely craze and crack the stone, making it more friable.

Quick- someone send bozam their chosera 1k in the name of science.

Guess they should call it a hone softener...

Haha, I don't think you have to worry about hi-jacking it. I think every method of flattening a hone know to man was hashed over by page 3. Besides, this is still somewhat on topic - and very useful information. It -NEVER- would have occurred to me that my tap water could be softening my hones if I were having issues like yours.

I have a side question for Jnats - can you expand on why you say the Norton 4k isn't a good razor hone?

Thank you very much, jnats. Forgive me, I'm speechless at the moment. I'll catch up shortly. Maybe.

I just realized I've gone back to using Reverse Osmosis water to soak the stones before using them to save some money. Guess that's a mistake.

Would the well water untreated cause a problem? I haven't tried that yet. It would solve the lack of copious amounts of water for flushing wayward particles. I'm always running into a few stray particles from the nortons.

The 8k really does not need soaking at all. A light spray a couple of times and it should be good to go. The 4k, if you are still willing to use it, you can experiment with to determine the minimum time required for soaking. I would guess 5 minutes to be sufficient, though of course that partially is affected by how frequently you use it, as that will affect how dehydrated it is when you begin the soak.

And I apologize for presuming that bozam was soaking his hones. Still, given the number of people who permanently soak their Nortons, I doubt binder is magnesia based.

prejudice mainly in that I don't like its honing feel or its cut quality. The Shapton glass is much more consistent. Combine that with the need for a 30 minute soak and the need for it to be constantly flattened, and propensity for which it will be purchased in a dual grit format 4k/8k leading to risks of grit contamination, also it is a faster more aggressive/harsher cut than 3k sg with more metal removed (especially spines) and deeper stria. means it is a horrible suggestion for newcomers.

Norton 4k
*Deeper errant stria
*more aggressive steel removal/ lower consistency of cut than other stones
*commonly purchased in the economical 4k/8k or 220/1k formats leaves grit contamination issues which new guys aren't always aware of
*30 minutes before go means more pre planning and less time spent honing/lower frequency of honing sessions to give new honers practice.
*known quality control issues of the hones, where there are alternating grit levels in the hone. - how can you suggest something as known to work when you don't know if someone taking your advice is going to get the same hone??

Shapton 3k
*less of a jump from 1k bevel set.
*more uniform cut and stria
*formed on glass, it doesn't warp as much as the norton and therefore needs less flattening
*much better honing feel- if it feels better chances are you'll hone better
*much cleaner stone to use as it is less friable and slower wearing
*Splash and go- you have 15 minutes to hone, you can do it. No need to limit its use to when you have 40 minutes plus to spend on honing (30 minutes to soak and load a norton)
*consistent product for razors- no huge quality control issues.

The norton 4k is a fine stone for chisels and knives. It can be used on razors but so can a lot of things that I wouldn't suggest. Shapton glass 3/6 after a 1k bevel set is a better progression than 1 4 8. Those lower grit stria are deep and a lot of problem edges I see are people jumping to quickly without erasing the lower grit stria. Most the people I've seen having problems- have problems with the norton 4k/8k. I don't understand were all the love comes from. An SG 3 and 6 is not much more.

*EDIT- it is $68-78 more, which some will pint out is near twice as much. But a big mac isn't much more than a dollar menu cheeseburger. $80 a hone isn't bad at all.

I myself have never been a fan of, nor an owner of, one of the combo Nortons. From day one of joining SRP in 2007 when I first was introduced to the Nortons, I knew that I wanted single grit hones. This is the first set of Nortons I bought and it still works just great.

Lot's of unexpected progress today.

I have gone back and looked at all of the blades I own with a loupe and have found many problems that could be contributing to my troubles. I found almost every blade including my current project have all kinds of micro chips, and one had a double bevel. One was completely round of all odd things.