Thread: Finish hone after flattening?

So back to the bevel setter for all of them!

Originally Posted by Utopian

I myself have never been a fan of, nor an owner of, one of the combo Nortons. From day one of joining SRP in 2007 when I first was introduced to the Nortons, I knew that I wanted single grit hones. This is the first set of Nortons I bought and it still works just great.

Attachment 226024

As happy as that makes me, it still doesn't inform as to the soundness of that recommendation today as how can we be sure that new guys are going to get a good one?

Originally Posted by Utopian

The gritty layer in the Norton 4ks did not seem to be an issue with the older Nortons but seemed to become a problem with them when they switched manufacturing to Mexico. I got my first 4k in 2007 and it was made in US. I got my second one in 2008 or 2009 and it was made in Mexico, had the gritty layer, and had much larger and more numerous surface pores. Same issues for the third one that I got around 2011 or 2012.

More importantly- how many beautiful vintage razors are going to be ruined with all the time and reattempts they spend trying to get a decent 4k finish before they advance to the next grit - before they find out that there's quality issues in the hones they sunk their startup honing capitol into? Forget the children. Think of the razors!

Time is money, Time is also steel. something. something. steal money.

Originally Posted by jnats

prejudice mainly in that I don't like its honing feel or its cut quality. The Shapton glass is much more consistent. Combine that with the need for a 30 minute soak and the need for it to be constantly flattened, and propensity for which it will be purchased in a dual grit format 4k/8k leading to risks of grit contamination, also it is a faster more aggressive/harsher cut than 3k sg with more metal removed (especially spines) and deeper stria. means it is a horrible suggestion for newcomers.

Norton 4k
*Deeper errant stria
*more aggressive steel removal/ lower consistency of cut than other stones
*commonly purchased in the economical 4k/8k or 220/1k formats leaves grit contamination issues which new guys aren't always aware of
*30 minutes before go means more pre planning and less time spent honing/lower frequency of honing sessions to give new honers practice.
*known quality control issues of the hones, where there are alternating grit levels in the hone. - how can you suggest something as known to work when you don't know if someone taking your advice is going to get the same hone??

Shapton 3k
*less of a jump from 1k bevel set.
*more uniform cut and stria
*formed on glass, it doesn't warp as much as the norton and therefore needs less flattening
*much better honing feel- if it feels better chances are you'll hone better
*much cleaner stone to use as it is less friable and slower wearing
*Splash and go- you have 15 minutes to hone, you can do it. No need to limit its use to when you have 40 minutes plus to spend on honing (30 minutes to soak and load a norton)
*consistent product for razors- no huge quality control issues.

The norton 4k is a fine stone for chisels and knives. It can be used on razors but so can a lot of things that I wouldn't suggest. Shapton glass 3/6 after a 1k bevel set is a better progression than 1 4 8. Those lower grit stria are deep and a lot of problem edges I see are people jumping to quickly without erasing the lower grit stria. Most the people I've seen having problems- have problems with the norton 4k/8k. I don't understand were all the love comes from. An SG 3 and 6 is not much more.

*EDIT- it is $68-78 more, which some will pint out is near twice as much. But a big mac isn't much more than a dollar menu cheeseburger. $80 a hone isn't bad at all.

I'm on an iPad, so please overlook concise respones please.

You are hitting on all cylinders. My biggest problems are:
1- dual grit contamination. I am constantly flushing that 4/8 Norton. With my lack of water, I really have a problem getting enough water to avoid cross contamination. I regret my norton purchase every time I pick it up.
2- alternating grit layers! That's exactly what I thought was going on. The light went on as soon as I read that point. Right now, I'm in a layer that I've never seen, and I've done a lot of lapping.

It's not really that complicated. The Nortons have worked well for a lot of people. I am in the minority in choosing single grit hones but many people have successfully made use of the combination hone. The grit issue with the 4k is quite simple. As you hone along and encounter an errant piece of grit, you lap it away and move on. Some people recommend lapping away eighth of an inch off the 4k before using it. I did not consider it to be enough of an issue to bother doing that. I simply lapped it when I could feel the blade hit a piece of grit. One single stroke is all it takes to notice something wrong and then just a few lapping strokes eliminate the issue.

Yes, I would prefer that the problem did not exist, but it's not difficult to deal with. Also, grit contamination is a one way street. 8k contaminating 4k is irrelevant and given how hard the 8k is just a simple flush of water on the 8k is sufficient to wash away 4k grit sitting on the surface of the hone. If 4k grit is getting actually embedded into the surface of the 8k, then that is a technique issue, nothing more.

I'm trying to convince you that the Norton 4/8k is not a lost cause, but I consider that my effort is a lost cause. Because a lot of people are very happy with the hone, you will have no problem selling it on ebay to at least recoup some of your investment.

Originally Posted by bozam

Thank you very much, jnats. Forgive me, I'm speechless at the moment. I'll catch up shortly. Maybe.

I just realized I've gone back to using Reverse Osmosis water to soak the stones before using them to save some money. Guess that's a mistake.

Would the well water untreated cause a problem? I haven't tried that yet. It would solve the lack of copious amounts of water for flushing wayward particles. I'm always running into a few stray particles from the nortons.

We've established that the RO water is not that acidic. I would stick with what you got. The magnesium sulfate in the well, before it gets exchanged for sodium sulfate- both of those are the problem in our scenario. Much more so that mildly acidic water. The Proof is in the hone that has not yet turned to pudding- your switch is working. Stick with that.

I use purified water in all my honing, as when finishing, the minerals and salts can be larger or sharper than jnat particles. I'm a purist with the particles. Ever take off your aerator off the faucet and look at all the solids built up? I don't want that stuff on my finished edges.

Originally Posted by Utopian

It's not really that complicated. The Nortons have worked well for a lot of people. I am in the minority in choosing single grit hones but many people have successfully made use of the combination hone. The grit issue with the 4k is quite simple. As you hone along and encounter an errant piece of grit, you lap it away and move on. Some people recommend lapping away eighth of an inch off the 4k before using it. I did not consider it to be enough of an issue to bother doing that. I simply lapped it when I could feel the blade hit a piece of grit. One single stroke is all it takes to notice something wrong and then just a few lapping strokes eliminate the issue.

Yes, I would prefer that the problem did not exist, but it's not difficult to deal with. Also, grit contamination is a one way street. 8k contaminating 4k is irrelevant and given how hard the 8k is just a simple flush of water on the 8k is sufficient to wash away 4k grit sitting on the surface of the hone. If 4k grit is getting actually embedded into the surface of the 8k, then that is a technique issue, nothing more.

I'm trying to convince you that the Norton 4/8k is not a lost cause, but I consider that my effort is a lost cause. Because a lot of people are very happy with the hone, you will have no problem selling it on ebay to at least recoup some of your investment.

Not a lost cause yet, Utopian. Thanks for your imput. Its valuable for me and others. Just too many posts at once for me and my lowly iPad. My initial mistake was getting the dual grit. I didn't really know all the issues involved in that decision and it wasn't a money thing. The water issues took what would have been an aggravation, to a whole new level of inconvenience. Not having enough water to properly flush the work area is more than a little trouble. The stone softening issue that no one could help me with over there was especially frustrating. There just didn't seem to be a solution to a problem that "didn't exist."

So I would probably deal with it if it was one or two issues, but multiple unknown issues with no solutions caused me to post this afternoon, and I'm glad I did. It turns out my issues could be real, and that is relieving. I didn't know what to do next, and now I have some options. Let me thank you, jnats, and the others that added. I'm optimistic once again and ready to take another run at this.

I do need to go back and reread the posts because I'm still spinning.

The bevel setter indeed. Also I was wondering if I could shorten the soak time, and now I know I can do that safely.

Goodnight all. I'm not in the best of health, and I'm pretty tired, so I'm out for the rest of the night. Thanks for everything.

Originally Posted by jnats

prejudice mainly in that I don't like its honing feel or its cut quality. The Shapton glass is much more consistent. Combine that with the need for a 30 minute soak and the need for it to be constantly flattened, and propensity for which it will be purchased in a dual grit format 4k/8k leading to risks of grit contamination, also it is a faster more aggressive/harsher cut than 3k sg with more metal removed (especially spines) and deeper stria. means it is a horrible suggestion for newcomers.

Norton 4k
*Deeper errant stria
*more aggressive steel removal/ lower consistency of cut than other stones
*commonly purchased in the economical 4k/8k or 220/1k formats leaves grit contamination issues which new guys aren't always aware of
*30 minutes before go means more pre planning and less time spent honing/lower frequency of honing sessions to give new honers practice.
*known quality control issues of the hones, where there are alternating grit levels in the hone. - how can you suggest something as known to work when you don't know if someone taking your advice is going to get the same hone??

Shapton 3k
*less of a jump from 1k bevel set.
*more uniform cut and stria
*formed on glass, it doesn't warp as much as the norton and therefore needs less flattening
*much better honing feel- if it feels better chances are you'll hone better
*much cleaner stone to use as it is less friable and slower wearing
*Splash and go- you have 15 minutes to hone, you can do it. No need to limit its use to when you have 40 minutes plus to spend on honing (30 minutes to soak and load a norton)
*consistent product for razors- no huge quality control issues.

The norton 4k is a fine stone for chisels and knives. It can be used on razors but so can a lot of things that I wouldn't suggest. Shapton glass 3/6 after a 1k bevel set is a better progression than 1 4 8. Those lower grit stria are deep and a lot of problem edges I see are people jumping to quickly without erasing the lower grit stria. Most the people I've seen having problems- have problems with the norton 4k/8k. I don't understand were all the love comes from. An SG 3 and 6 is not much more.

*EDIT- it is $68-78 more, which some will pint out is near twice as much. But a big mac isn't much more than a dollar menu cheeseburger. $80 a hone isn't bad at all.

Thank you. I was curious to see what a more experienced honer thought of them. I don't know if how aggressive or deep the stria are matter that much if you have the N8K. I think it takes between 15 and 20 rounds on the 8k to polish away the 4k stria. I think the most I've ever soaked mine is 5-10 minutes. When the bubbles stop, I'll take it out and go to work. If you're supposed to wait a full half hour, then I suppose I've been mistreating mine. I think the biggest downfall is the quality control really. Not only did mine have that rough/loose layer on top of the hone, but I've also discovered a similar inclusion on what I refer to as the backside - the part that I accidentally wore down way too quick. Doesn't matter how much I lap it, or how that area is polished it just stays rough, so as of now I can only use about 2/3 of my hone's surface.

I've about wore out the 4k side of my combination hone, and was kicking around the idea of either getting a new 4/8 or getting a set of single grit hones like Utopian has pictured. I may just forgo that entirely and be happy with my Dragon's Tongue for the time being. It did an admirable job of removing 1k stria when I tested it.

Update:

Thank you everyone that gave me advice several weeks ago. I have now joined the ranks as a successful honer. Your advice and encouragement was instrumental.

My issues were all compounded by no experience to work from. Internet video and forums can only do so much. Experience has to be gained, and in my case, it finally came together in one night.

1) Water. I am using distilled water exclusively except for cleanup. No problems with the stones softening is occurring.

2) A Dia-Sharp that was not flat. This was the most surprising discovery and also the moment everything finally came together. I've been trying to flatten for 4 months with an unflat flattener and never could get a flat hone. An Atoma is inbound, but I am getting satisfactory results by turning the Dia-Sharp at an angle and only using 1/3 of the end to flatten the stones. Not perfect, but way beyond the previous results.

3) The Norton 4/8k is much better since I have cleaned up all the surfaces with the Dia-Sharp. Less rogue grit rolling around. I still will be replacing it with single grit stones, and maybe I will stay with Norton, maybe I will switch brands. i think if I had separate stones and a separate stone holder for doing the pyramid, I would have a less harsh opinion on it.

4) I had been trying to learn with two cheap razors that turns out, are stainless steel. That harder metal compounded my problems with the stone issues. I'm now learning on softer carbon steel razors, and that is working out much better.

5) Pressure. Too much pressure on the stainless blades caused the edge to lift off the stone during a stroke. I could have honed forever and I never would have created a sharp razor. I probably started applying pressure when the stones were not cutting as compesation. With no experience base to work from, I had no idea what I was doing, or why the edge would never get sharp.

6) I have three razors sharpened up enough to get great shaves with. I will need more time and patience to become more consistent with the finishes, but it is sufficient for now and a base to build from.

Thank you all for your help.