Thread: smooth vs sharp - how to

okay. im still kinda new to razor honing so would like to try and better understand the difference between ‘smooth’ and ‘sharp’. and more importantly how to attain either upon desire.

sharp does not necessarily mean smooth, right? I was thinking about adding a 16k to my progression after 12k. will this make the shave smoother as well as a little sharper? if not, what do others use or do to smooth out the edge a bit? do you go from 12k to a coticule for a few laps? or will this just take the razor back down from 12k to a lower/lesser edge? do you strop some extra laps on purpose?

I hear words used like ‘smooth’ and ‘buttery’ but how do you attain that? personally im okay with losing a small amount of keenness for a gentler shave. as an example, feather DE blades are known for being super sharp but im (personally) just fine using derby or astra blades. they may not be as sharp as feather but they still cut through hair just fine.

what do you do to get the edge more comfortable? id love to hear everyones process, try them all, and see what works best for me.

thanks!
-s.

I think a better "verbage" for your question might be 'smooth' vs. 'keen'.

I have seen it described, but it doesn't really do it justice. The best way to see the difference is to hone a blade to 8k, then shave. Afterwards, do a few laps on the 12k. The 8k will be more "comfortable".

"buttery" is basically comparing your shave to cutting butter with a hot knife. No resistance and little sensation of the blade on the face. This is far buried in the "YMMV" area, depending on coarseness of hair and the sensitivity of your skin. Having good lather will also make the world of difference.

I would recommend against a 16k if you are looking for a smoother, more comfortable edge. Particularly when starting out in honing. 16k is not a cheap finisher and 12k will probably satisfy your balance of "keen" and "smooth".

Let me explain it with a simple pic




That is Sharp


The same thing is going on at the edge of a SR, only at a microscopic level, you need to remove all the striations and get as even straight smooth edge as possible.. It really is that simple..

There are many theories on how this is accomplished

The only one that I absolutely know works is that the more honing you do the better at it you get

Keenness is often times accused of harshness,,, it is most likely bad honing technique...

thanks for the quick responses dinnermint and gssixgun. if you dont mind my asking, what do you both do to 'finish' your own personal razors? im not asking what you might do for someone else. but what you personally do to your own before you consider it ready to shave? anything different?

There is virtually no difference in my routine for personal vs professional honing

one thing that I did not mention is stropping

Stropping does more for the final feel on the face then many give it credit for, becoming HIGHLY proficient at stropping makes a world of difference to "Smooth"

Forget the 16k, the 12k is more than enough to get a sharp and smooth edge. Instead invest in time, the more time you spend on the hones the smoother your shaves will be.

A lot of the feeling of the edge is produced by your finish hone and stropping. In a recent post a member did state that his stropping could improve the "feel" of his razor. I have to agree that this is quite likely. I have been know to strop on cerium oxide to make an edge smooth. Some hones produce what I would call a prickly shave. Some of it is of course in the hands of the operator, but there is a portion that goes back to the hone. Coticules and Escher hones both have reputations for smooth edges. To be honest, in the correct hands you can get a pretty darn smooth shave from a Norton 8K. So if you go through the old JaNorton thread and the videos and can get your razor nice and smooth off the Norton 8K, you will be able to get just a tiny bit more with a Naniwa 12K or one of the other super finishers, coticule, escher, Goku, Zulu, Goldfisch, La Lune, the list just goes on and on. One of the great places to try all this out is at a multi day meet.

I have friend who is an old time barber and he explained how over sharpening can give a poor uncomfortable shave. We all heard about flash on the blade and if you watch video's they show running the blade over your thumb nail or once or twice lightly over a hone. I have used a Suehiro 20 k, Escher, surgical black ark, chromium oxide and now a Lv5+ JNat.. For smoother, more comfortable shaves I have found the Escher or my Jnat give the best results. It is very important to learn the correct way to use them with slurry. Once you do, the shave will be heaven.

Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Forget the 16k, the 12k is more than enough to get a sharp and smooth edge. Instead invest in time, the more time you spend on the hones the smoother your shaves will be.

I have to disagree with you on the 16K hone. It takes my 8K edge just enough sharper & polished that I can tell a difference. The secret Of the Shapton & other quality hones is let the hones do the work. Don't push hard cause you won't like the edge & just wear down the hone. The main thing to me is to really learn the hones you have before changing anything. My next hone will be a good bevel setter. I am going between the Shapton or Chosera 1K hones. My King works but it is slower than I like. I have honed & stropped a few razors for people & I want a a bevel setter I like to use.

Slawman

Originally Posted by sloanwinters

sharp does not necessarily mean smooth, right? I was thinking about adding a 16k to my progression after 12k. will this make the shave smoother as well as a little sharper? if not, what do others use or do to smooth out the edge a bit? do you go from 12k to a coticule for a few laps? or will this just take the razor back down from 12k to a lower/lesser edge?

You have to assess why you need to smooth the edge. Is it because you have reached the limit of your 12k ? or is it because you have used too much pressure & mashed up the edge making it like the serrated knife. Or did you use too many strokes ? also a way to degrade an edge.

After 12k I go to a 20k. 10- 20 strokes & shave test, post stropping. Sometimes after that 3 strokes on my finest Jnat with no water will give me the 'smooth' you are talking about but I figure that just means a tad too many strokes on the 20k as its not always needed.

There is a tipping point where a blade is good enough to shave with or it is optimal for the user's skill level. For me 12k is not quite comfortable enough but I could get by if I used some CrO afterwards. For sensitive skin you may need to juggle things some more. To quote gssixgun, "There are many theories on how this is accomplished".