Thread: smooth vs sharp - how to

Originally Posted by gcbryan

This is interesting. It's the traditional advice that pastes result in a more harsh edge?

Nope a myth started by a certain Hone Pusher

Keep in mind you will find what Jimmy said to be true right up until 2 things occurred almost at the same time

1. A certain natural hone was pushed as being the most comfortable edge ever to touch a face

2. Somebody said "If you are not certain about what paste you like, use a Balsa wood strop to test it out first" next thing we know there are actually people selling Balsa strops and people are using them as a pasted strop..
Paste on Balsa works almost too well and the Pasted strop changed from a method of Mellowing the edge to more of a Refresh method..

Not really a bad thing as it adds more versatility to simple paste but the Mellowing aspect has obviously been lost to many of you newer guys

Originally Posted by gcbryan

This is interesting. It's the traditional advice that pastes result in a more harsh edge?

IME chrome-ox, unlike diamond paste for example, can smooth out, soften a harsh edge. Sometimes a coticule, escher, or other natural finisher can also take a high grit synthetic finished edge and bring it down a notch or two, and in that case smooth the harshness out. Variables with all this stuff, but that is my personal experience. Keep in mind that the coticule, and other naturals are unlike a synthetic. Like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get. Some are great, some not so great. IME.

It's the traditional advice that DIAMOND pastes, MAY result in a more harsh edge?

I have used both diamond sprays and Crox and my face doesn't care for either. Harsh or too crisp was my experience, they both sucked the comfort right out of my Jnat edge. This is wholly subjective a, YMMV thing. At the end of the day it comes down to what works for you, give both a try and see how you like them.

Good luck!

Like the other guys have said, the balance of keen vs. smooth is a very personal preference. For what it's worth, I finish with a hard Arkansas stone followed by lots of stropping on canvas and then leather. After that I maintain the edge as long as I can by only using those two stropping surfaces.

The goal of honing is to first get the bevels flat and meeting at an edge. At that point it is sharp enough to cut hair.

To get the bevels to meet, we use an abrasive, that cut steel with grit that leave stria. Low grit stria leave deep stria that can end at a serrated edge.

The shallower you can make the stria, the straighter the edge, the straighter the edge, the more comfortable the shave, because the edge is riding on your skin.

So, we use a progression of grit to speed up the process. Higher is not always better and at some point, the issue becomes, if the razor steel can hold the edge. You can go as high or low. as .0005um/ 3.2 million grit polycrystalline diamond compound, but for me .25um CBN is as fine as my skin will take and feel comfortable. And most razors steels can not handle an edge higher than .125um.

The beauty of a straight razor is you can tailor, the edge to your razor, beard, and skin type, and have a new edge every day, with minimal effort.

Past .50um you need to, go to paste. Chrome Oxide is .5um/30K and will calm most edges, high grit synthetic edges tend to be harsh because of the uniformness of the grit, random fine grit like coticules, fine slates, Jnats and hard Arks tend to have smoother cutting edges.

It all comes down to user abilities and personal preference.

“What do you do to get the edge more comfortable? id love to hear everyones process, try them all, and see what works best for me.”



I take an edge to 20k, after 1, 2, 4, 8 and 12k. I do strop after 8k and 12k and remove almost all stria, then hone on the SG20, or a Natural finish stone, Slate, Jnat, Coticule or Hard Ark.

Yes, it is over kill, but...

Depending on the finish stone, post SG20, I strop on leather, then .50um and .125um CBN. The razor is then shave ready and can be maintained at a very high level of keenness and comfort, with .50 and or .125 um CBN on a paper strop. This is how I hone customer razors unless, a specific finish stone is asked for.

For Jnat, Arks, Coticule and some Slates, I strop on linen and leather only for maintenance. As those are special edges and stropping on CBN would leave a CBN edge and not the stone edge, which are unique and the reason for using them, for me.

From a 12k super stone edge, which should be almost stria free, (make sure your 12k is free of loaded up swarf, for your final laps & that you are using light pressure), strop on razor quality Chrome Oxide (very important) on a canvas or nylon strop, leather works, (but not as well IMO), or .50um CBN.

I have been using a hard ark, an old Lilly White, to refresh stones, works great on Super Stones and SG20 and remove less stone material than a Diamond plate.

You can strop on leather, (20X) then Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN daily, (40-50X) with no ill effects to the edge, in fact, eventually, a week or two, all stria will be removed from the bevel and the edge will be super straight and very smooth. The edge can last indefinitely and can be easily refreshed on a high grit stone in just a few laps if needed.

The trick for most new Straight Razor users is stropping, as one errant stroke can wipe out all your work. If you are lucky a jointing and a few laps will bring it back.

Find a system that works for you, then perfect it, learn to max out each stone in your progression. If you change something, change only one thing at a time.

And lastly the absolute final, definitive test, is the shave test, that is how you judge progress. You will know when you hit the sweet spot.

Enjoy.

Originally Posted by sloanwinters

I was thinking about adding a 16k to my progression after 12k. if not, what do others use or do to smooth out the edge a bit? do you go from 12k to a coticule for a few laps?

I would like to clear up some of the small details, Glen and the other guys have done a fine job as usual.

First the 12K vs 16K comment. I do not know what manufactures 12K you have, but the most common one I can think of is the Naniwa 12K SS. The most common 16K hone I can think of is the Shapton 16K Glass hone.

Each manufacturer has their own classification and numbering system. Let's drop down to the 8K hone in both Naniwa SS and Shapton Glass.... the size of the grit in each of these hones are likely not the same size, so substituting one for the other will NOT give you the exact same effect. It gets worse when you find out that different product lines from the same manufacturer may not be identical to each other as far as the grit size is concerned. The main purpose of those 4K or 16K labels is to tell you which hone to use next in a progression (when it is from the same manufacturer and in the same product line), so you can tell them apart. In the Shapton Glass range, there is a prominent number on the bottom of every hone they make. Naniwa marks their hones quite faintly on the side of each hone, but instead make each hone in a different color, making it obvious (once you memorize the color/claimed grit size).

Going back to the 12K Naniwa SS vs 16K Shapton Glass question, I have both and I cannot really tell any difference between them, other than the feel while honing. Naniwa SS hones feel softer than Shapton Glass hones and sometimes I prefer one over the other, but I wouldn't use the 16K after the 12K.

On the other hand, Naturals are not *better* but they ARE different, and I might follow either of those synthetic stones with one of my several naturals. Which natural I select will vary on a whim.... no real reason other than I want to use this hone or that today. Some gents find one of their natural hones seems to work better on a particular razor.... I can't really say I find that to happen myself, but I do find the natural hones, while often much slower cutting than synthetics, seem to offer a more pleasing edge to shave with.

So... assuming you have a 12K Naniwa SS, and you wish to venture out to try something different, I'd suggest you try a natural hone of some sort. It won't be cheap, but stones like the Coticule, Zulu Grey, Japanese Naturals from a trusted seller etc. would all be a good next choice. Beware though.... just because you purchase X stone, does not mean it WILL work for sure..... they are made by nature..... each stone is an individual, and all have their personalities and some just don't work no matter what you do. The safest in my mind is probably a Japanese Natural, but only if purchased from a trusted seller who offers to take the hone back if it does not work out for you. These gents will often have tested the stone before sale and can guide you along after purchase.... and they stand behind their stones if it happens you get one you just don't like. But do not forget, this kind of service also comes at a price... it is a fair price, but it IS a price..... These will not be your Ebay bargains.

Beware of ANY natural stone where a grit rating is offered.... there simply is no such thing.... they were created by random chance and nobody knows what is in them... we only know roughly what we can see on the surface that is exposed. We may know the primary ingredient that is harder than steel and thus does the honing, but particle size and binder hardness is all random. Even two natural hones cut side by side out of the ground may be wildly different or on the other hand, they might be near identical. That is the lure for many of us honers.... the search for that elusive hone. Even funnier..... someone buys a hone, spends untold hours trying to figure the hone out, gives up and sells it, only for the next owner to exclaim it's the greatest hone ever..... because they figured it out.

I've had a love/hate relationship with my big Coticule..... it just did not seem to create the edge I was looking for. 10 years later, a local chap whom I got going in the straight razor madness, picked up an old stone at an antique shop for $10 or something like that and when it was cleaned up, it was clearly a Coticule hone. He used that hone in ways I never did, and offered a honed blade to me for my "opinion" on his edges. My jaw hit the floor... it was the nicest edge I'd ever shaved with! After hearing how he was honing the edge, I gave the same treatment to one my my razors on my disgusting, I should really sell it, Coticule. Today, the stone is NOT FOR SALE! So.... be prepared for a learning curve, and don't be afraid of a hone someone has given up on.... it *could* be a great hone in YOUR hands.... But, if you see a hone offered for $10 and it's claimed to be 12K or 16K or 20K, and it's a natural stone and it's listed as brand new..... you should be seeing warning flags. It might still be a good hone... but I'd look at them carefully before pulling out my wallet. I know there are Chinese 12K stones being offered, and opinions on them vary.... I have never tried one, so I cannot offer an opinion either way, but the consensus seems to be that they may be worth the price they are offered for, but they are not a $1000 Jnat being sold for $50.

GSsixguns tagline says it all:

"No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"
Very Respectfully - Glen


Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "Why can't I ever write a *SHORT* reply" Zero


[Edit]. My Coticule (8" x 3") seems to sharpen an edge quickly, but if I want the uber smooth edge my friend Danny showed me how to get, it will take about 200 super light laps after my 12K on absolutely pure clean water. "A few laps" won't do anything on pretty much any finishing hone.

euclid and kaptain - thank you both for taking the time to offer up your knowledge and experience. much appreciated.

yes i have the naniwa 12k. i also have a coticule and zulu grey as well. but have been hesitant to switch from synthetic to natural in my progression.

Originally Posted by BadB

I have used both diamond sprays and Crox and my face doesn't care for either. Harsh or too crisp was my experience, they both sucked the comfort right out of my Jnat edge. This is wholly subjective a, YMMV thing. At the end of the day it comes down to what works for you, give both a try and see how you like them.

Good luck!

You may simply have taken an optimal edge past it's breaking point.