Thread: New stone Japanese natural, Ozuku Asagi

Originally Posted by bobski

The allure of the natural stones is strong. People get caught up in the romanticism of them. About 18 months ago I went down the coticule path. I'm not criticising coticules generally, but I had no good fortune in them. I bought two 8 x 3 select grades, and another two bouts. After converting half a dozen razors over to their edge I was disappointed badly. The shave wasn't good at all. I'm not arrogant enough to blame the coticule entirely, but I do know how to hone. I sold them at a loss.
Now I've gone back into naturals. I bought the stones above, the Ozuku then the Wakasa. I've gotten great results from both of them, so now I have that confidence to really contemplate getting a few more. If feel, that the noise about them is justified. I remember when I first got edges from the Gok 20 and raved about how sharp they were. They are still the sharpest edges going round! They are acute though, really clinically sharp, one slip and your cut!.
I noticed with my Ozuku that, yeah they were sharp, they did a nice job. Not a Gok 20 edge, but a toned down version, it felt as though I could have closed my eyes and not cut myself. I guess they are more forgiving. That's not a bad thing. Anybody have any conclusions coming off 20k edges?

I never liked the gok edge. I don't think it's more refined, I think it's less.

I found the same thing with coticules as you. You can finish with all of the ones suitable for razors, but they are not as reliable as jnats (jnats are generally different in speed, but only lacking fineness if a seller lies to you and says something like "you can finish a razor with this stone with a little work". Good jnats don't require you to do much other than rub a razor on them, and good doesn't mean expensive, it just means fine with no toxic stuff and not too soft).

In my opinion, natural stone edges stay more consistent and are more amenable to linen (good linen, not some modern coarse untreated incantation) and good leather.

I sold my gok a long time ago. It makes a usable edge, but because of the mechanism of delivery, short of what you could do if you just used graded chromium oxide. You will get better with the jnats than you are with the gok. I never use any powders any longer, just natural stones and seldom honing.

Side comment - I'd bet 100 years ago, people using coticules both had better stones on average (the ones that pike imported, etc) for razors and at the same time, often didn't remove the entire edge when honing, because the edge that's been subjected to a couple of hundred trips to good leather and linen will surpass any edge that's freshly honed. You just have to mind the thickness of the edge itself and work the bevel to keep it from getting fat and dull.

I hear you re the Gok 20. I'd never sell mine as I've had several years of great edges from it. That being said, I'm visiting family this weekend and I picked out a razor for my trip. I used Dovo Bismarck that before leaving home, gave 6 laps on the gok20. First shave was close, but a few hours later I ended up with a weeper. Bloody annoying, when I get home I'll put it on my hardest natural I have, the Wakasa,

Originally Posted by bobski

I hear you re the Gok 20. I'd never sell mine as I've had several years of great edges from it. That being said, I'm visiting family this weekend and I picked out a razor for my trip. I used Dovo Bismarck that before leaving home, gave 6 laps on the gok20. First shave was close, but a few hours later I ended up with a weeper. Bloody annoying, when I get home I'll put it on my hardest natural I have, the Wakasa,

You do realise the Gok20 is finer than any Jnat that exists so the edge is therefore sharper. To avoid weepers is literally in your hands ie less pressure & flat angle.

@ DaveW : I can't fault the Gok 20 edges. YMMV.

To take a penetrating glimpse of the obvious, the 1st shave after a 20k touch up is a little less forgiving because it is such a fine stone. So in the future I'll be a little more circumspect with my technique on a fresh 20k edge.....lol

Originally Posted by onimaru55

You do realise the Gok20 is finer than any Jnat that exists so the edge is therefore sharper. To avoid weepers is literally in your hands ie less pressure & flat angle.

@ DaveW : I can't fault the Gok 20 edges. YMMV.

I wouldn't say I fault them. They are what they are - a half micron alumina edge. If anyone would say you can't shave with them, they'd be fibbing. They are a bit brash, though - compared to an edge that's been teased with linen and leather for a while. Not any sharper, but less smooth. Such an edge isn't something a pro honer can supply, though - it takes a shaver time to develop an edge that has correct geometry but where the edge itself is without damage and the molecules exposed at the edge have not seen a stone or abrasive as hard as steel.

If one is to use a natural stone and try to use it like a synthetic, the edge will come out better with the Gok 20. I was expecting something unrealistic from it, though - something better than chrome ox powder on very hard horse butt. It doesn't do that. I do like that it can (or at least could at the time) be had for about 2 bills and in a stone that will last 9 lifetimes vs. the very thin looking glasstone.

I would take most natural koppa or an ark stone over it. The particles are larger in both types of those natural stone, but their hardness is in the range of iron carbides, so skill can overcome the particle size issue if you have time with them, especially if time means lots of iteration and a "relationship" with each stone (the first time someone told me about developing a relationship with a quality natural stone, I thought they were full of poo - I have learned since then that you can use a different term that's less romantic, but the thought is relevant. It's like woodworking. Sometimes you're looking just to do something well woodworking, but not necessarily obsessed with "getting better". You use familiar tools and somehow you get better, anyway, due to familiarity and repetition).

For the first year that I used natural stones, I'm sure I would've gotten better results with a gok. I also have the advantage that you and others have, I've been through some natural stones and found stones that I like. If I got a run of the mill shoubu stone that should have been sold as a prefinisher, I couldn't make magic with it and match the gok.

No experience with a SG20k, but I can tell you, Shobu stones can be really good. The ones I've had the pleasure to try are very hard, and possess very strong cutting power on slurry (for finishing stones). It means they can give you a range of edges, from very mellow and forgiving as you say, to very sharp and harsh (for my skin at least).

I will agree, jnats are easier to work with than coticules, although I use a few lately... got one vintage La Petite Blanche that will likely stay with me permanently. Owned and sold a La Dressante, Las Petas, La Verte.. tried a La Grise a few times, didn't care for it at all. I also use a La Veinette, but mostly for mid range work when I feel like it. I can't seem to consistently make the transition from slurry to water, so that I get rid of all the deep scratches. This is a non-issue on my jnats, no matter the mine they came from.

That is a very nice Ozuku by the way, it will likely outlive us all!

Originally Posted by bobski

Has anyone had any good luck with Shobu stones, sometime known as shoubudani. I have left the most lauded stones alone (Nakayama) as they cost a lot, and a lot of that is on reputation, so I figured I'd rely on advice from a trusted source. I'd still be interested in members views on the Shobu mined stones. I know JNS have sold a lot of Shoubu-dani, at fairly cheap prices compared to the Ozuku pictured. So any views are welcomed.

I have a Shoubudani Su nashi Suita which is an excellent prepolisher after 5-8k. The Shoubu Asagi I had was an ok finisher but I preferred my Nakayama as a final stone.

From Japan-Tool website ~

Shoubudani:
The origin of Shoubudani quarry is about 800 years ago.

Shoubudani and Nakayama stones were patronized by the Imperial household, for its superior quality used for polishing swords. These stones have never been traded among the commonality between Kamakura period(1185~1333) to mid Muromachi period (1336~1573). It was at the end of Muromachi when these stones appered within the general market, although the better stones were still monopolised by the royalities, the stones with lines and odd shapes were used by the craftsmen and carpenters, and this contributed to the drastic improvement in quality of their works.

If you are familiar with Japanese natural finishing stones, I suppose you have heard of the name Hon-yama. The name Hon-yama is used by any finishing stones nowadays so it mearly means "finishing stone" now, but this name originally was the nick name for Shoubudani mountain. Nakayama is also one of the quarry from this mountian. Honma Tou-zaemon Toki-nari has been appointed as the leader of mining by the famous Shogun of Kamakura period Minamotono Yoritomo in 1190. Thus the mountain was called Honma's mountain = Hon-yama. "Yama" means mountain. Shoubu-dani and Nakayama stones are the only genuine Hon-yama stone.

Ozuku:
One of the treasured Higashi-mono, Oozuku has a very fine grain, usually quite hard, and sometimes too hard and scratchy.

Ozuku had variety of stones quarried, from Shiki Suita at the bottom to Tenjyou Suita at the top. The quarrying has been stopped for decades but the rough stones that has been quarried is being processed and made into products.

Thanks Oz, that's great information, I'll certainly enjoy examining that period of stone/blade development. I recall studying the Meiji period when the first trade began with Japan and the subsequent discoveries by westerners of Japanese iron/steel methods. It's an intoxicating topic, gives an idea of real traditions over much longer periods of times.
Cheers Bob